In an explosive interview which he recently granted Channels Television’s “Inside Sources”, Washington-based lawyer Emmanuel Ogebe spoke on possible US military action in Nigeria as a result of alleged Christian genocide – and what can be done to prevent it. Transcript:

Olaolu Akande: [Music] Welcome back to Inside Sources. I'm still focusing on the statements of the US President, Mr. Donald Trump regarding uh what he has now also described as Christian genocide in Nigeria. But now we are taking an international dimension. I will be speaking with Mr. Emmanuel Ogebe, a US-based Nigerian lawyer who actually recently won the Federal Government's Diaspora National Merit Award for his contribution to the development of the law. I'd like to welcome back to Inside Sources (instrumental music) Emma Ogebe. Good to see you again, Emmanuel.

Emmanuel Ogebe: It’s a pleasure to be with you again.

Olaolu Akande: All right. So–

Emmanuel Ogebe: Thanks.

Olaolu Akande: … Emmanuel, please fill us… All right.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Thanks.

Olaolu Akande: So, Emmanuel, please fill us in on how this campaign, which has been on for a while, how it got the attention and some of those very strong statements from the US President because you recall that this thing has been going on, the advocacy from Nigerians in the US to get the US Government involved with this matter has been going on forever.

We have never gotten to the point that a US President will come out as strongly as Mr. Trump has done. Can you fill us in on what changed in the dynamics? Emmanuel.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Okay. Yes, well, first of all, let me point out that I was involved in the drafting or advocacy for the passing of this bill about 28 years ago. And at that time, we were looking at countries like Sudan. We did not realize that many, many years afterward Nigeria’s situation would be bad enough to warrant a designation. Now that said, let’s be clear, President Trump had actually called out Nigeria face-to-face with Buhari in 2018 when they met.

The difference is, Trump asked him nicely, “Stop the killing of Christians in Nigeria.” That was direct engagement. And afterwards they went back into the White House and they signed a trade agreement. So Trump was able to engage with him to resolve this issue and still do business with him. What has happened? After Trump left, the Democrats came in and they completely stopped an evaluation of Nigeria. And so, of course, when Trump came back, you know, the situation had worsened since the last time that he complained about it several years ago.

And unfortunately, instead of addressing the issue, the Nigerian Government started denying the facts. You see, when you are accused of stealing the goat meat, your response should not be, “Who would have stolen that kind of salty meat anyway?” Because by your response you admitted guilt. The Nigerian Government, instead of saying, “Look, we are addressing the issue, this is what we have done,” they say, “It’s not only Christians who are being killed, others are being killed.” That is an admission of state failure.

And this is why we are where we are now on this issue. But let me point out something very important. Trump has announced the designation, but then the next phase is sanctions. And I want to be clear that the first time sanctions were waived, and this time around it’s not too late to waive sanctions. Now, let me just reassure listeners about the threat of military action. Now, Laolu, you were the one, as Bureau Chief of Guardian here in the US, who reported exclusively that the US military set up a base in Niger that was covering terrorism in Nigeria. You were the only one in the world to report it. Guess what? Those two bases that America had in Niger are now lost. They were closed after the coup. So America has lost its footprint in West Africa to conduct special operations. So what that has resulted in is that Boko Haram has actually increased its operational footprint and pathology.

So the situation is worse. And I have to tell you this, I do not believe that President Trump is going to unleash any attacks on Nigeria. For two reasons. One, historically, the US military has been reluctant to fight side by side with the Nigerian Government because they don’t trust the Nigerian Military. And one specific example is when they got intelligence on the location of the Chibok girls in the forest, they were cooperating with the Nigerian Army under direction of President Obama.

So the US Government told the Nigerian Army that they would gas the camp where Boko Haram was with the girls and then lock everybody out so that they could rescue the girls safely without exchange of gunfire. After they mapped out this plan, the next thing that happened when the troops got to the camp of Boko Haram, they saw Boko Haram wearing gas masks. So the US realized that the Nigerian Military had leaked the operational details to Boko Haram.

This is why the US does not want to work directly with Nigeria, with boots on the ground, because they do not trust the Nigerian Army. Now, here is what we are concerned about and here is what I believe Trump was referring to. An American was abducted in Niger and was brought by the Fulani Islamist terrorists to Nigeria as they were about to sell him to Boko Haram. That was during the Trump first term.

So Trump sends US Special Forces to Nigeria to go and rescue them. But to show you the level of cooperation between the US and Nigeria, Kash Patel then was the one who was to liaise with Nigeria and give Nigeria information that US troops were coming into their airspace. They literally stopped the SEAL team while they were in the air until they got clearance from Nigeria to enter Nigeria airspace.

They arrived in Sokoto, they killed the six Fulani terrorists who had abducted an American citizen. They captured one and handed him to the police, and then they flew back with their citizen. What happened then? Trump came and announced it, “We have just recovered Philip Walton in an operation where he had been abducted.” So why am I giving you this background?

Olaolu Akande: Mm.

Emmanuel Ogebe: A few days ago, another American was abducted in Niger. Now what Trump is saying, in effect, is that if this guy ends up being brought to Nigeria again by these Fulanis who abducted him, he will take action. So the likelihood, what he might mean, is that the location where this boy is found will be held liable. So my advice to whoever is in touch with these people, I know that Nigeria’s NSA has been involved in ransoming people from Fulani bandits.

Let that American then be found and returned peacefully so there will be no problem.

Olaolu Akande: Well, for the sake of objectivity and balance, let’s say that what you just said about the NSA is an allegation because that office has denied ransom-taking since he’s not here to give a response.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Okay.

Olaolu Akande: But to take your question to the next level, you will also recall, Mr. Ogebe, that it was the first presidency of Mr. Donald Trump that actually facilitated the sales of the military Tucanos to Nigeria, which was prevented before he got there. So clearly, I also don’t think that Mr. Trump is playing games. And like you have said, he had also raised this issue informally with the former president.

And so, it’s not as if he’s just coming to the issue for the first time. So I wanted to ask you, with this background, what do you say to the conspiracy theorists who argue that the Americans are only interested in the resources in Nigeria, particularly the solid minerals and all the other stuff that they have a significant need of?

What’s your response? You are there in Washington DC, Emmanuel.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Well, the funny thing is that the United States has more oil reserves than Nigeria. Secondly, President Jonathan told me himself that Nigerian oil is being smuggled into the US and that he appealed to President Obama to help him investigate and stop the oil bunkering that was illegally going into the US. Now, of course, you know that the US has signed an agreement with Ukraine to have access to their earth minerals.

Nigeria is not that critically needed by the US for the US to waste military manpower and resources to take over Nigeria. This is arrant nonsense. Our leaders in Nigeria are already stealing money from Nigeria and bringing to the West and buying houses. So they don’t need to do that. But let me make something very clear, and the issue here is this, okay? When we are talking about foreign intervention in Nigeria, let us look at the facts.

The people in Northwest Nigeria invited Lakawura, a terrorist group, to come into Nigeria and assist them in fighting bandits. Only for Lakawura to come in and become bandits themselves.

Olaolu Akande: Mm.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Let’s remember that El-Rufai, a sitting governor, said that he traveled out of the country to go and pay off the Fulanis who were attacking Nigeria. And we saw what happened. They ended up moving into Nigeria and creating a terrorist syndicate nationwide.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Let's remember that Buhari himself brought in Fulanis in the hopes of destabilizing the country if he did not win the elections. So when you look at all that has been done by the other side, it is unfortunate if somebody now comes to you and says “Try and save your own people from being killed” and you as a government who have admitted that these are foreigners who are coming in and killing you; are beginning to sell the person that no it's not just Christians they're killing it's Muslims too.

Let me point out something else that is very important to note. Trump has said that he may stop aid to Nigeria. And here's the thing, remember that Obama and Co at a point tried to leverage their aid to say Nigeria must introduce and accept same sex marriage and so on and so forth. And you know, Nigerians were upset with them doing that. This time around, it's a very different situation. He's saying, “Try and stop the killings of your own citizens.” So it's not a a question of their imposing western ideologies and theories on Africa. It's a question of saying “save your own lives and value your own lives.”

So I think you know uh everyone should be rest assured that we will not see a military escalation but we should certainly at this time, begin to take aggressive steps to engage. The sanctions can be waived. The federal government should set up a response team and bring in knowledgeable people like yourself. You were in the US, you know this issue. Bring in bring in, you know, knowledgeable people. Let's sit down and come up with a road map on how to avert sanctions.

Olaolu Akande: Okay. Thank you, Emmanuel. So let's talk about in your own view whether we need to have some kind of rallying together of all Nigerians on this matter. Because part of the problem is that you have quite a number of uh people in our population saying that what about the Muslims that are also being killed. Some will even come up with the claim that look more Muslims are actually dying from the killings a lot of killings going on in the country. So in your view Emmanuel, how can we you know uh pull ourselves together and say that look let us treat this as a national concern as a national emergency and not something uh that is meant to divide us uh like Christians here and Muslims there. What's your what's your counsel?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yeah. So the issue is very, very straightforward and anybody who denies that Christians have been a central target and focus of the genocide is allergic to the truth and you shouldn't play politics with the blood of martyrs with the blood of God's children. That is unacceptable. Now here's the fact of the matter. As at November 1st, 10 people have already been killed in Plateau State. All of them Christians. First day of November. Okay. The week before, 12 were killed in Plateau State. All of them Christians. You know. Let us not deny the obvious. What we are saying is no single person should be killed. But we have a situation where Christians are the primary targets and Muslims are collateral damage. We have terror groups in Nigeria who fight over whether they should kill Christians alone or whether they should kill Christians and Muslims who oppose them or who refuse to to join them. Let me mention you know something very important. The Nigerian government wanted to send a a team to the US to meet with the US Congress. But let me tell you what happened to the last team that came in September. When they got to the US and went to Congress, they were presented a position paper from the US Congress and they went back. They had the chance to present that paper to the house, debate it and come up with the response. Nothing happened. When they went to the UK, they told the UK, "Oh, there's no targeting of Christians. This is just general banditry." Do you know what the members of the UK asked them? One question and they kept silent. They said if it is simply just criminality, what about the case of Leah Sharibu? 110 girls were taken from Dapchi. The government of Nigeria negotiated their release. All the Muslim girls were released. Only the only Christian was kept behind. How can you say that is purely criminality? So let us not play games. Let me point out that the CPC designation is not only focused on Christian persecution. It involves persecution of Muslims as well. That is why one of the key issues that was raised by Ted Cruz was the Blasphemy Law. We have two Muslims who are one is on death row and one is on life imprisonment because of debates that they had with people and they were now condemned as having perpetrated blasphemy and apostasism and they've been sentenced. These are victims of religious extremism and intolerance. But even with this case of these Muslims who went through this legal process, compare that to Deborah Emmanuel who I'm showing on this t-shirt. Deborah was a Christian. If they were offended by her remarks, she could have been tried like the Muslims. She wasn't. She was burnt alive and the people who did it showed their faces on camera and nothing has happened to them. So we as a country should set up a response. But most importantly, the National Assembly should begin a hearing on the state of religious persecution in Nigeria and let them let Nigerians ventilate their grieviances and let this administration address it. I believe that President Tinubu is a political engineer. for him to have overcome all the obstacles he had to achieve this position. He's somebody who is very savvy and he has the opportunity to resolve it. We want Christianity and Islam in northern Nigeria to be like Christianity and Islam in southwest Nigeria. And if Tinubu cannot do it, somebody who is married to a Redeemed Pastor, then there's no hope for Nigeria.

Olaolu Akande: Thank you so much, Emmanuel Ogebe.

And I share that view entirely with you uh that the President is uh specially positioned to solve this matter just by the point that you've raised and the fact that in the southwest you know uh you have the best model of Christians and Muslims and all other

Emmanuel Ogebe: Anywhere in the world the southwest is an example of religious tolerance anywhere in the world.

Olaolu Akande: Yeah. So so so Mr. President is positioned to actually solve this problem. I'm going to give you one more minute. Can you tell us so how was this reflected or is going to be reflected at the International Prayer Day? Uh please one minute.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes. Well around the world today is being is marking the International Day of Prayer for the persecuted. And here in the DC area we're going out to pray for Nigerians in particular. And I know that on December 1, I believe Nigerians are gathering outside the White House uh to also protest uh in honor of people who have died. Let me just mention that on Sunday last week, we buried a Nigerian Christian from Yobi who survived the genocidal attacks of 2012, but he lost three sons who were killed by Boko Haram that day. One man and last week he died and was just buried on Sunday. So we, I continue to see parents of people who died are themselves dying. So the collateral effects of the terrorist attack is having second, third and fourth repercussions and this is why it needs to be taken seriously.

Olaolu Akande: Thank you. Thank you so much uh Emmanuel Ogebe and uh we continue to pray uh you know for the souls of the departed and like we have said in this uh segment that President Bola Ahmed Tinubu has everything it takes to solve this problem. Thank you for coming to inside sources Mr. Ogebe and thank you for the great work that you are doing in the United States around this issue.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Thank you very much.

Olaolu Akande: All right.

Emmanuel Ogebe: God bless.