US International Human Rights Lawyer Emmanuel Ogebe has affirmed that genocide is being visited on Nigerian Christians contrary to the denials of the Nigerian Government and the Muslim community. In a recent interview with ARISE TV, Ogebe advised the Nigerian Government to “address reality to avert imminent US sanctions.” He also disclosed that he warned a minister at the UN recently that sanctions were coming but nothing was done. Please enjoy the interview as reproduced below.

Anchor: Barrister Emmanuel Ogebe, thank you for joining us live from Porto on DAYBREAK.

Co-Anchor: We understand you’ve written a petition to the United States government on Nigeria being designated a country of particular concern, and now we are seeing a nationwide protest happening in Nigeria on “Free Nnamdi Kanu.” What do you make of this situation coming five years after the EndSARS protest?

Ogebe: Yes, well, first of all, let me clarify that the petition I was consulted on, but it wasn’t my petition. Several of my colleagues and associates signed the petition, and I am privy to it.

The sad thing about yesterday’s occurrence is that Sowore, myself, and President Tinubu were all in the pro-democracy movement against Abacha many years ago. It is sad that with those kinds of antecedents, President Tinubu would see something like this happen in the capital of Nigeria.

The second really sad aspect is that just a few weeks ago, we saw armed men armed to the teeth, even with RPGs, meeting with government officials for so-called peace meetings, and now we have peaceful protesters being fired on. The message that is being sent is that “in Nigeria, for you to get attention, you have to be violent. If you’re a peaceful protester, violence will be rained upon you.” That is not a good message for any society to send.

Co-Anchor: We also look at the engagement of the security forces at yesterday’s protest. How would you describe their conduct, because we understand that tear gas was thrown, even though they denied using live ammunition? We saw that it was a major shutdown of the Federal Capital Territory, while some key cities in the southeast, like Umuahia and some other towns, were also completely shut down. What do you make of the rules of engagement of Nigeria’s security forces within that context?

Ogebe: Again, this is a replay of what happened at Lekki. We had the same situation where the military fired upon innocent civilians, denied it, and ultimately, it was proven to be true. Again, that was also linked to Tinubu’s business interests at the Lekki toll plaza. Sadly, we have not learned from history, and it is happening again.

Let me emphasize that shooting civilians is never acceptable. In the U.S. We just had the “No Kings Rally.” Over eight million people came out to protest against President Trump, and would you believe only twenty-two people were arrested? They were supporters of Trump who came to harass the people protesting peacefully. Nobody was killed, nobody was shot, and there was essentially no tear gas, even on eight million people. So we as a country have to do better.

I felt that where President Tinubu would be different from Buhari was that he would engage with protesters in a more amiable manner. Look at what is happening in southeast Nigeria. Nnamdi Kanu is not a terrorist in the manner of all the kachalas in the northwest and northeast who are committing acts of terrorism. Why are they not making efforts to dialogue with him? Why are the people of southeast Nigeria not worthy to be communicated with or engaged in the same way that they engage with terrorists? This is not a good message to send to the nation.

Anchor: Regarding that petition, which your associates wrote to the U.S. government asking that Nigeria be designated a country of particular concern, we know that Senator Ted Cruz described what’s happening in Nigeria as genocide. The Nigerian authorities say this is a fairytale that misrepresents the complexity of the security challenges in Nigeria. Talk me through that petition and why it matters so much to your associates.

Ogebe: Let me state for the record that originally I was the one who filed the petition to the U.S. government to get Boko Haram designated as a “foreign terrorist organization”. I did a seventy-five-page brief, and the Obama administration was reluctant to do it. Out of annoyance, members of Congress introduced a bill to force the designation of Boko Haram as an FTO because the executive was not doing it.

The same thing is happening now. The Trump administration, in its last term, designated Nigeria as a country of particular concern for religious persecution because of the way General Buhari mishandled the issue. When the Biden administration came in, they removed the designation. So Congress again, seeing the administration refusing to do what was needed, decided to introduce a bill to designate it.

Let me be very clear: there is no doubt that there is an ongoing Christian genocide in Nigeria. We are all aware of what has been happening for the past twelve years in northeast Nigeria. They stop taxis on the highway, select the Christians, kill the males, take the women as sexual slaves, and allow the Muslims to go. This has been happening for over a decade. There is no doubt about it.

The real question here is whether there is complicity or complacency by the Nigerian government. That is what the International Religious Freedom Act examines, whether the government is behind it or tolerating it. This present regime of President Tinubu has an opportunity to address that issue. My candid advice to them is to look at the concerns that have been raised and find a way to mitigate them, because that is what Sudan did. Sudan was able to get off the CPC list and go down to the special watch list (SWL) because they addressed the concerns. Propaganda will not cover up the reality in northern Nigeria.

Anchor: Some may see you as a traitor for allegedly trying to bring down your country because this has implications for Nigeria.

Tell me whether this worries you or you're afraid for your safety?

Ogebe: Let me be clear. I have been an expert on Nigeria in Washington for about twenty-five years. I was privileged to meet you there when you served as bureau chief. So I am consulted on issues relating to Nigeria. This particular petition I didn’t sign, but I had input and reviewed it when it was being put together.

At the United Nations three weeks ago, I met a Nigerian minister and told her sanctions were about to be imposed on her country. I advised her to take certain steps. Since then, she has not responded to any of my messages. We have done everything we can to reason with the Nigerian government that this thing is coming, but it can be mitigated. They keep saying they are sending delegations to Washington. As long as they don’t address the issues, they will continue to have this problem.

Let me quickly say this: this is my first time on your show since you lost your colleague. Please accept my condolences. If you investigate that case, you will see that the people who attacked their home obtained their weapons from Niger. If you dig into it, you will find that it is the same terroristic elements in partnership with banditry who are going around committing these acts. No part of Nigeria is safe from them.

The last data we saw showed about 270 forest locations in Nigeria occupied by these terrorists. Statistically, Nigeria is the world’s deadliest place to be a Christian. More Christians have been killed in Nigeria than in the rest of the world combined for the last thirteen out of fourteen years. These are confirmed data points known globally. Let us not deny the obvious; let us address the elephant in the room.

Co-Anchor: Okay, addressing the elephant in the room, Mr. Emmanuel, have you thought of the consequences of Nigeria being designated a country of particular concern at a time when the government is driving a very delicate and complex reform program? The government admits there are killings, but bringing this religious coloration to Nigeria’s insecurity problem looks more worrisome, because we have seen attacks in mosques in northern Nigeria. Don’t you see it as misleading to designate Nigeria as a country of religious genocide against Christians?

Ogebe: Let me be very clear about this issue. Some of the concerns raised by the congressman in his bill include blasphemy. Do you know that the people who are in prison in Nigeria now, who were sentenced to death and life imprisonment for blasphemy, are Muslims and an atheist? So the bill addresses not only Christian persecution but even Muslims who are suffering as well.

Let me point out something sad: Muslims accused of blasphemy have the opportunity to go to court and be tried. When a Christian like Deborah Emmanuel was killed, was burnt to death, recorded on video, and nobody has been convicted to this day. The same thing happened with Eunice in Abuja and Bridget in Kano. So let’s not play games with this.

Secondly, let me point something out. Nigeria has been designated before, and Nigeria didn’t die. What happened at that time was that they waived the sanctions. Remember, they are not targeting citizens who are victims of oppression, but the country that doesn't act to address it.

I am from Benue State. Look at what happened in Yelwata. Two hundred people were killed in one night. That same week, Israel and Iran were fighting with aircraft and missiles, and in six days, the number of people killed in Israel and Iran was not up to the 200 killed in Yelwata in one night, and we say it’s not genocide?

I went to Zike in Plateau State. One woman lost seven family members in one night on Palm Sunday—they killed fifty-four people: her husband, father-in-law, mother-in-law, brother-in-law, and her children. How can we, as a country, watch ourselves being killed while the international community calls on us to act?

By the way, we all know that the Fulanis who are perpetrating this terror are foreign fighters who are brought in for political reasons. So why can’t we put our house together and protect ourselves? It makes no sense. We cannot allow ourselves to be killed in vain. If we will not do it ourselves, nobody will do it for us.

Anchor: Give our viewers some context. You are a northern Christian and rights activist for that matter, it means that you have a wealth of information at your disposal. Tell me what you hope to achieve, or if you think you will achieve anything in the short, medium, and long term.

Ogebe: The killings have to stop. It is not sustainable. A place like Gwoza has been occupied by Boko Haram for more than twelve years. I have been to Cameroon and seen Nigerians in refugee camps. They are not back in their country, and it is not right. The immediate thing that must happen is that the killings must stop.

We need those Nigerians who are refugees in Cameroon to be brought back. That means there must be clearance of regions occupied by terrorists. The Fulani killer terrorists must be moved out of Nigeria. They are not citizens of Nigeria. They can't speak Hausa, they can't speak English. They are easily identifiable. They come here and intimidate Nigerian Fulanis to join them. So we need Nigerian Fulanis and the Hausas, who are also victims of them, because Hausa victims in the Northwest exist. We all need to bandy and say “it is better for us to protect our nation Nigeria rather than owe allegiance to foreigners who don’t care whether Nigeria survives or not.”

So we want to see the Nigerian government set up an international team to work on sanctions so that we can address these issues one by one.

Anchor: Right, can you give us instances where the designation of a country as a “country of particular concern” has made any difference, and if you think it will make any difference in Nigeria?

Ogebe: Yes, the clear example is Sudan. Sudan was an egregious violator for many years and was top-ranked CPC. When the government of al-Bashir was overthrown, the new regime said, “We’re going to fix things.” They hosted an international religious freedom roundtable in Sudan, and everyone aired their views peacefully. The U.S. downgraded them from CPC to the special watch list (SWL).

If you look at that petition, it says they don’t want Trump to designate Nigeria on the special watch list, they want Nigeria as CPC. So it is a foregone conclusion that Nigeria will be designated this year.

Forget what Boulos, the special envoy to Trump on Africa, said. He’s a Lagosian; he doesn’t know the experience of people in northern Nigeria. And for someone who is from Lebanon, he knows what happened to his country - it divided religiously. He cannot come here and tell us what is happening in our own country.

So Sudan is a classic example, a case study of a country that sat down and addressed the issue, and the U.S. downgraded them. Nigeria can do the same. Tinubu is a sophisticated operator. He can get his Attorney General and Foreign Affairs Minister to set up a committee, and look at the concerns, and address them one by one. This is required by law in the U.S. There are parameters and indicators that, once met, will get you off the list.

Co-Anchor: Since you’ve described this perspective, we’ve had many requests from governments about the U.S. designating Nigeria as a country of particular concern. I wonder if this is genocide or a crisis or a crisis of narrative, because the Minister of Information said Nigeria faces an existential threat from foreign actors plotting to weaken the unity of the country.

Ogebe: There is no foreign actor weakening Nigeria more than the foreign Fulani fighters destroying this country. The current National Security Adviser said before his appointment that the reason the Fulanis are killing is because Buhari did not keep his promises to them. We need to know what promises were made. Whether we like it or not, it is in the public space that foreign fighters were imported for election purposes, with the expectation they would violently take over the country if he did not win the election. President Jonathan graciously stepped aside, and because of that, they didn’t get the violent pillaging they were promised. That is why we see what is going on.

Let me make it clear: you cannot argue that “there is no Christian genocide simply because others are being killed.” That is madness. That is admitting failure in the eyes of the world. You should not be happy that others are being killed.

Yes, Muslims are occasionally collateral damage, but the fact remains that the violence is coming from their ranks. And whether some of them are killed as well, doesn't change the fact that their objective is to eradicate Christians.

Anchor: Thank you so much, Emmanuel, for joining us on Daybreak. Emmanuel Ogebe is an activist and lawyer. He joined us live from Porto in Portugal. Thank you.

•International Human Rights Lawyer Emmanuel Ogebe