Elder statesman and chieftain of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), Chief Mike Ahamba, SAN, has insisted that the Nigerian state would not achieve progress until power is devolved from the central government to the federating units.

In an interview with VINCENT KALU, the legal luminary also spoke on the public hearing being conducted by the National Assembly on the proposed amendments to the 1999 Constitution, insisting that the National Assembly lacks the power to amend or change the constitution.

And speaking on the death of former President Muhammadu Buhari, Ahamba said the late former president was hijacked and controlled by a cabal, and so the Buhari that was president was not the real Buhari that Nigerians expected.

What?s your view on the political coalition that has adopted African Democratic Congress (ADC) as its platform for 2027 elections?

I?ve always felt that we don?t have a political party in Nigeria yet. This is what I said in my presentation to the House of Representatives seminar in the year 2000. My position is that what you have is an election platform, not political party. Your political party has to do with belief in something.

Here in Nigeria, the moment where you belong to is getting too hard for you, you just move into another party for the purpose of contesting the election. That?s what is happening now.

For me, I don?t move that way. If I move from a party, I move on principled reasons, not because I lost nomination or I want to contest the election. No, it?s wrong. So, the alliance people are free to ally themselves.

But, you can see most of them, while being in the ADC, still say they are members of their previous parties. Is that the way to form a party?

Does that mean there?s a party in that ADC? So let us watch them and see how they survive.

I heard that they are now in court. Let us see how the courts will deal with a situation in which a chairman just changes executives of a party without reference to a convention or a congress.

Let us see how they manipulate that. So, as far as I am concerned, I?m a member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and I so remain. I?ll stay there until I retire from politics.

Why is it that the PDP that was a behemoth some time ago is now a shadow of itself?

They had a crisis which they couldn?t manage. When something begins in a particular way, its end has come. At a point you find that PDP was being ruled by a manipulated executive and that is why they are suffering today.

That executive did not arise from a genuine convention; it?s an induced convention. The consequences are those people have loyalty to the individual who put them there, and not to the party.

Buhari is dead today; I can say this for him: I was with him when he entered the ANPP. We went to Kebbi State when Alero was launching funds for his governorship return ticket. In the morning, we had a grand meeting, and somebody was asking Buhari certain questions, and he, Buhari told the story of the crisis in Kano State. According to him, somebody came to him and said, ?look, support me, and I will owe loyalty to you.? Buhari?s answer was, ?you can?t owe loyalty to me; you should owe loyalty to the party.? That was my first point of reacting towards Buhari.

There and then I booked an appointment with him through Tulehama. And the rest is history.

So, what I?m trying to tell you is this. People must learn to stay where they believe in what is happening in the party, the principles of the party. It?s not when you don?t get tickets, you go to another place. Or when you think it?s too hard for you to get tickets in a place, you go to another one.

Whatever law the National Assembly may pass, if they don?t control how primaries are held, we can never get it right. That?s where the crisis begins, because primaries have become a kind of a carry-go situation.

So, it is this carry-go thing that has brought the problem in the PDP today. And I believe that now that all those who feel uncomfortable have gone, those who remain are the genuine members of the PDP.

And we shall be a formidable force in 2027. Watch out.

Some people say they belong to PDP, but they would work for APC. Some others say they belong to PDP, but their mandate is to see ADC emerge winners. How do you reconcile this?

They have said. To talk is not ?Talk-na-do?, as they say in the motor park. When the time comes, let us see how one person will tell us who to vote for.

Don?t worry until the time comes. That time, maybe, he will be courageous enough to move to that side. But I want to tell you that those who are still in the PDP today are genuine, strong-at- heart PDP members and nobody will manipulate them that way when the time comes. You will see. Anybody can say what he likes now, but when that time comes, you know what to do.

What will determine the outcome of the 2027 elections?

The outcome will be determined by the will of the people to better Nigeria for themselves, not for incumbents. Let everybody test himself out and see whether he?s comfortable.

Our Mbaise people say that when you are in a place and the sun is beating you and you don?t move, then there?s something wrong with you. So, Nigerians will have to show that there?s nothing wrong with them and that they?re conscious of what is right and what is wrong. With the suffering they?ve passed through, I expect Nigerians to be able to take a decision and stand by their decision.

What will decide it will be the attitude of Nigerians and not the attitude of the contestants. How Nigerians feel about what they have passed through will determine the issue. That?s the way I look at it. But, if they don?t do it, then it?s all over. It can never be corrected again.

How do you rate the first half of Tinubu?s government, as well as the APC in the last ten years?

This started when my friend, Muhammadu Buhari was the president. I don?t want to talk about Tinubu, but the APC. APC has never brought anything good for this country since they came into power. Buhari was elected, but the presidency was controlled by a cabal, so it couldn?t be the real Buhari we expected. APC government believes in themselves and not in the nation.

Ask anybody in the street to assess the government. I have paid daily for it, and many people are paying daily for their bad governance.

So, in 2027, let anybody who says that he didn?t feel uncomfortable, go ahead and vote for that party. I?m not campaigning against them. Let people vote in accordance with how they feel.

How Nigerians are feeling now will determine the voting pattern in 2027.

We are degenerating continuously to where we are now and if we allow that degeneration to continue, the man in the streets will pay dearly for it. It is expected that the man in the streets should now realize the situation.

Right now, something is playing out. There are two categories of politicians: One is self-aggrandizement politicians ? those who are changing party for their own safety, having known that they can be dealt with because of what they have done. The others are the food-is-ready politicians who want to go where he thinks it should be easy for him. They don?t want to go to the kitchen of politics; they only want to go to the dining table of politics.

We will remain in that kitchen to cook, and to bring up to the table. Those who go to the table, the moment there?s no food there, they will run back to those in the kitchen for accommodation. And that?s what is going to happen.

Those who have gone into certain parties in order to get certain nominations with ease will run back when they find that they couldn?t get it.

The Senate is conducting public hearings around the six geopolitical zones on the amendments of the 1999 Constitution. What is your position on this?

After this interview, go and look at section 9 of the Nigerian Constitution. That section says that the National Assembly may alter a provision of the Constitution. Now, the National Assembly is now acting as if that section says, amend or review.

I believe that it is not so. For us to have an authentic Constitution, we should have the National Assembly to do what they can do. Pass a law on creation of a constitution. And in that law, they should exclude themselves from it, exclude members of the executive, and let the local area bring in members. Even if they have to spend six months, let them do so. They will go and look at the areas we don?t want and do a new constitution. After they have finished, the National Assembly should make a provision for plebiscite. However, in our constitution, there is no provision for plebiscite. The only provision for some plebiscite is when you?re talking about boundary disputes. That?s where you have plebiscites.

So what lawmakers are doing now may be something that is popular with the people, but, it?s not consistent with the constitution of Nigeria. Let us see how it plays out. If they can solve it, fine. We know how to do things against the law and clap our hands that we have done something great. If that will solve our problem in Nigeria, let us do it, and move on. That is my position. Look at that section. After looking at that section, you?ll be able to advise yourself on whether what they are doing is consistent with that section or not.

Can it be said that what they are doing is unconstitutional?

Precisely.

Don?t they have advisers or members to point this section 9 to them?

That?s their business. I?ve said it several times. In my lecture at the Ahmadu Bello University on Political Reforms, I made it clear. Also in my book, Getting It Right Today, the theme section was on this question of constitutional review. When the National Assembly was trying to amend the constitution some time ago, I sent that paper to them. The professors who chose my lectures that were published in that book, Getting Right In Nigeria selected that one also.

Let us not do things the wrong way because the thing we?re doing is popular because it will hang up at a point. There are things that should be changed, but I want to repeat it; I want to say it from the depth of my heart that our problem is not our constitution. For God?s sake, our problem is in the hands of those who are operating the constitution. If only those operating the constitution can follow 60 per cent of the provisions we won?t have any problem in this country. The fundamental selfishness of the individual Nigerian and the mistake of Nigerians of pointing fingers only at the politician is the beginning of our problems.

A Nigerian politician is a problem in this country, but the Nigerian politician is not the only problem in this nation. The problem can be found in one, the people; two, the press; three, the civil service; four, the INEC; and five, the judiciary. Of the five of them, the only variable is the politician, the other ones are constant. As we keep pointing searchlights on the only variable and leaving the four constants, we cannot solve the problem of Nigeria. And that problem is not constitutional. This much I can say about it. I?ll defend it anywhere, anytime, anywhere, any day.

What can you say about your friend, Buhari who was buried on Tuesday?

I?m emotional about his death. He was my friend, I wouldn?t deny him at death, but political circumstances separated us, and I don?t think I developed any negative mind towards him. I can only say, he has gone, and may his soul rest in peace.

People say Nigeria is not working. How can the country be made to work?

Like I said, if only the people can be properly educated to know that they should not be voting based on who has seen them, instead of somebody who will work for them. But in Nigeria today, the major thing is who has seen you? Has he brought something? That doesn?t qualify anybody.

My father was a member of the Eastern House of Assembly before the war. He won as an independent candidate against an NCNC candidate, even as formidable as NCNC was then, basically on the ground that he was more educated than his opponent.

Today, if you have the money to throw around, who will ask whether you are educated or not? This is a problem we have and eventually, it is the same public that casts votes that also suffers. That?s true. I?ve been in this. I?m talking from my experience. I got into politics three years after my youth service.

I went into the House of Assembly in 1979. I?ve been in politics since then. About 30 per cent politician, 70 per cent lawyer, that?s what I?ve been. I?ve never left my legal practice because I don?t know how to get money from another source, except on my professional table.

I believe that the people should be indoctrinated into knowing that if they vote the wrong person in, they can never have it good. And what is more, they should make those people owe them, not them owing the politicians. If a man has spent all his money getting into the House, for God?s sake, he does not owe you. And if he sold houses in order to give you money, he will be a fool not to recover his houses for his family when he goes in there. Some are collecting the money from him, why do you complain if he wants to replenish what he gave you?

People have to be told that they are part of their problem. They are part of the problems of Nigeria.

And the day the people wake up, I don?t know when, I hope they do in 2027. The day they wake up, a lot of people will be shocked in this country.

Can Nigerian masses wake up considering that ethnicity and religious sentiments are mostly responsible for who gets elected?

That is why they should know that it is the people they send there who make the mistake. If you send the right people, things will be done in order. You cannot wish to protect yourself, and you don?t expect someone to protect himself also. In this country today, do you realize that nobody gets anything as a Nigerian?

You get something either from the South-East, South-West, South-South, North-West, North-East or North Central. You get something from your state, you get from your local government, but you don?t get something from being a Nigerian citizen. This is the issue. You are going to the Army; you are part of a slot of a state or local government. If you go to the police, it is the same thing. And for me, that?s where your loyalty is.

So, when we started the project of this country, I was still a secondary school boy. In the day that the British flag was lowered, we were all sent on holidays.

My parents went to the government field Umuahia for the celebration, I didn?t go. I was in the house. The celebration was great. My father changed all the chairs in the house; he painted the house, and everything was beautiful. We were celebrating. How many years after? That was 1960; I was in Class One then.

Now, I?m 79 years old, and things have gone from bad to worse because we have been indoctrinated by the military intervention to think about harvesting from the centre instead of producing for the centre. When we formed Nigeria, what was the decision? That people should produce and give 50 per cent to the centre. That was the decision then.

So, when the military came, they said everything belongs to the centre. So, everybody went to the centre. And today, they?ve reduced it to 13 per cent. And nobody wants to go beyond 13 per cent. The struggle at the centre is why we have problems in Nigeria

If we can minimize the struggle at the centre and let people struggle in their own areas to produce, we shall not be bothering about these things.

I will remember forever, Michael Okpara, who created an example in Eastern Nigeria. He developed industries, developed agricultural farms and everything. The farms helped us to survive the civil war for a long time when we suffered a complete blockade. Because of the farm settlements and establishments here and there, food was being produced and we were still surviving.

So, those who want to amend the constitution should restore Nigeria to Nigerian citizen.

Nothing cannot be done except by restructuring this country so that we produce and bring instead of Nigeria taking what we have produced and giving us a share.

That?s the only way out of the struggle. We have to reduce the friction and the fire at the centre.

It is the friction that we have at the centre that is creating the fire in Nigeria.

We have to reduce it and people should know that they have to produce something and those central things that are at the national level, must be distributed to Nigerians as Nigerians, not as Igbo or Yoruba or Fulani or Hausa or anything. This is the way I look at it. Competence. Let us learn to respect competence in whatever we do. Take the most competent person. That was how the original Nigeria government acted. Today, it?s not the same.

You mentioned restructuring. It seems to be ambiguous to some sections of the country, especially the north, and they are not comfortable with. How can it be achieved?

Nobody takes anything from anybody. It is a way to let you know that nobody takes anything from you, but you have to produce what you take, and your ability will decide who you are. There?s no place in Nigeria now that we don?t have qualified people in all areas. So, there is no basis of concentrating it just in one area. You look for the qualified people from different places that is what our constitution says, and not qualified people from a particular area.

Restructuring needs to be done because that will take us back to what we decided in 1959 before we got independence in 1960. We have to go back to our original agreement. We are operating Nigeria in breach of original agreements. That is the truth of the matter.

We are running Nigeria in breach of our original agreement, and so, we have to reverse. Yes, we have to reverse. If we don?t, Nigeria will disintegrate on its own one day.

I still suggest that Aburi Agreement be brought to the centre table to look at it and see how we can amend it a little and use it. That?s the nearest to what can save this country. All these concentrated things at the centre will not help us. The friction is too much. Yes, it?s too much. And when there is friction, you get heat. And when there is heat, likelihood of fire exists.

On the Aburi agreement, former Military Head of State, Gen Yakubu Gowon (retd), said that what Chief Odumegwu Ojukwu presented as the Aburi Agreement was not what they discussed. What is your take on this?

Let him bring the correct one. If Ojukwu brought the wrong agreement, doesn?t he have the right one? It has come to the point where he should publish the right one, and someone will publish the Ojukwu?s own and let us see if there is any difference in them.

If he said what they decided was not what Ojukwu published, where is the one President Ankrah of Ghana presided over? Let him bring it, he should have a copy.

You don?t say the copy I have is wrong when you have the original and you don?t want to bring it. I?m not doubting him; I?m not challenging him. If he says what Ojukwu published was wrong, let him bring the right one because he was the Head of State when they got to Ghana.

We know those who wrote the memo that led to his refusal to implement the agreement. It was the minorities; they occupied the top echelon of the civil service, and wrote a memorandum because that agreement did not capture fully the details of the minorities. That was the only problem I saw when I read it. It didn?t capture the interests of the minorities. It was based on the four regional structures at that time. Those in the North Central didn?t feel comfortable about it, and they were the people in the public service, and so, they wrote against it. Let Gowon give us the right copy, he should have it. He can?t tell me that he doesn?t have the right one. (Saturday Sun)

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