Babachir Lawal, a chieftain of the All Progressives Congress, was Secretary to the Government of the Federation ( SGF) during the Muhammadu Buhari administration. Lawal is a member of the Contact and Mobilization and Finance Committees of the Coalition being led by former vice-president and Peoples Democratic Party presidential candidate in last general election, Atiku Abubakar. Ahead forthcoming general election, the ex- SGF in this exclusive interview by TAIWO AMODU says the coalition was not bothered about the gale of defections from opposition parties to the ruling party, among other issues.

NIGERIANS are cynical about the capacity of the Atiku Abubakar-led coalition to dislodge Tinubu and APC in 2027, considering the gale of defections from opposition parties to the ruling party. What is your take?

I like to say that the problem with Nigeria is that everybody is an expert in everything. A lawyer goes on television and comments on engineering issues, as if he Is an expert and you journalists will say he is a social commentator. Politics doesn?t easily lend itself to that. If you aren?t in a room, you won?t be able to know what is happening in a room. So, from outside, you begin to conjure all manner of ideas that you ascribe to yourself, based on your mindset, what is happening inside. So, be that as it may, I can tell you that anybody is free to comment. It is a democracy; nobody can never say you can?t vote out an elected president. Anybody who says that, he isn?t sensible; he doesn?t know politics. Of course, we won?t be wasting our time if we know that we won?t succeed.

I have been hooked up in this town for the past five months, participating in this. If I knew it wouldn?t succeed, I would be on my farm. I started farming since the season but I stayed back. So, I must be an idiot if I leave my most important vocation to take coffee and snacks. Whoever says we aren?t serious doesn?t know who the people are because they don?t know who they are because we don?t take photographs. We don?t take minutes of meetings. We take time to make sure that information on strategies doesn?t leak. I am sure that is the reason for all the speculations. But I can tell you that the coalition is very serious; we are experienced and we know what we are doing. At the appropriate time, we will go public with what we are doing.

Let me seek for a clarification. A lot of people see Atiku as the rallying point and the agenda is to push him forward as the presidential candidate. Is that what this coalition is all about? Is it built around Atiku?

Why should it be about Atiku? I know some of the people that I suspect, have presidential ambition that are attending the meetings. Peter Obi is there as a presidential candidate himself, and I can?t see why he would join a coalition to build up a system that will benefit only Atiku. I suspect too that Amaechi has a presidential ambition, he indicated it and contested at APC primary and came a distant second . I don?t think Amaechi will waste his time and attend meetings designed to make Atiku a presidential candidate. So, it is one of the things I tell you, people outside they speak because they don?t know what is happening. Of course, it will be good for Atiku if he becomes a presidential candidate just as it will be good for Peter Obi if he takes the ticket. For me, I am coming into this merger from the background of somebody who worked very, very hard in 2023 to make Peter Obi president. So, at what point did I cross over to start scheming to give leverage to Atiku? It isn?t true; they are just speculating. Give kudos to those people who have ambition but everyone of them, apart from those of us who have no presidential ambition, everyone of them emphasizes, every time, on the fact that we need to get together and get a strong platform and then let us allow the democratic process within that platform to push out a presidential candidate, any candidate for that matter.

There are people there whose only interest is to get a platform where they will contest House of Assembly in their states, maybe because they feel the present system in their state is tilted against them. So, they need a platform to run for House of Assembly. There are also people whose only ambition is to become House of Representatives members on another platform, different from existing ones in their states. Some want to be senators, governors and, of course, some want to be president, everyone of them have interacted with everybody and they are saying, let us build the platform. When we build a platform that is suitable to run elections, then we allow democratic process. We will do a national convention to elect new tested and trusted leadership who will midwife the primary to elect ward executive, local and state executive and then of course, those executive will also midwife the congresses when the time is ripe. So, I don?t see why people keep talking about Atiku. Probably, of course, because he is very active, because he believes that a strong opposition is necessary to confronting a sitting government. He believes so, just like so many others. So, we wait and see.

When those processes are ripe, we wait and see who will emerge as the presidential candidate of the coalition because everyone agrees that is the way to go. That there can only be one presidential candidate under a strong platform.

We have heard speculation about Peter Obi and Atiku?s deal, it isn?t possible!

Are you saying Atiku is not brokering a deal with Peter Obi?

How can he make a deal when he isn?t yet the presidential candidate? It is after the convention and somebody wins and the party can sit down and begins to say, who do we make a vice-president? What formidable pair will make us win the election? So, on what basis are they pairing up? People are just speculating about it. That?s not in this coalition we are doing. We will wait for the convention to throw up, maybe among the three, others might join soon when the platform is steady, people are going to join.

Is Rabiu Kwankwaso with your group?

No, but he isn?t against us . Maybe he is one of those waiting to see how it pans out. There are many others that will come. Now, as I just mentioned to you, there are prominent people who have indicated interest in the Presidency. Some will come in and there is no doubt about it. All these governors that are defecting to the left, I am sure they will retrace their steps to the centre and move to the right eventually. Senators are quiet; they are there. Everybody is looking for a platform. It is because of this when Nigerians say that Bola Tinubu wants to instal a one party state, I just laugh. It isn?t possible in Nigeria, because if I lose to you on one platform, I will be looking for another platform. That?s how we are! Nobody accepts defeat and just say, okay. He will go to another platform to seek the ticket.

So, Nigeria can?t be a one party state. If I contest House of Assembly election in my local government, and I am defeated and I noticed another party that is yet to do their primary, I will quickly defect to that party, contest there and take it. That?s how it is going to happen. It has happened over and over in our country and it will happen. Eventually, those who fall out from the ruling party at the primaries and convention, they will move to us. That?s how Nigeria is. And they will strengthen the system; that?s how we are.

Is it true that the coalition has settled for the ADC? That?s the narrative in the national dailies.

I can tell you, categorically, that we haven?t as a group, concluded on where we are going ? whether it is ADC, SDP or any other party. We haven?t. But you see, we have two technical committees that have been working since last year. One is going to review all the political parties in Nigeria. The parameters for review is this. First of all, review the constitution of the parties: which one gives room for the type of thing we want to do, like takeover the leadership, strengthen the leadership, and use it as a platform? If, for example, your Constitution says that you can?t contest any election if you aren?t a member of this party for a particular number of years, obviously, that party will be ticked out. Do they have intractable legal issues? We can?t go in and inherit a problem that we can?t solve. Do they have intractable management crisis? Typically, PDP where you know that it is impossible to fix it, we tick that party out. That?s what they are doing with the technical and legal committees. Eventually, they have narrowed down to a few political parties and we will negotiate. Other conditions are there. We can?t have a political party where the presidential candidate has no say in the leadership. Are they willing to allow us lead the leadership? What are terms and conditions for that? Have they at least, one elected person in government or Assembly on an election conducted by INEC? Do they have any member of the House of Assembly elected in any of the states of the federation? Do they have a serving senator, or a serving governor because we are afraid that the Electoral Act suggests that if you don?t have any elected member, you can be de-registered. So, are we going to go into a platform that after we enter, they will deregister us? So, these are the criteria and ofcourse, typical of politics, I am closer to chairman of one party, you are closer to another national chairman, why not go in there? We have to manage all these intentions. So, that?s what has taken the time, but we will get there. We are getting to the end. I can confirm, we had a meeting recently where the expectations is that we will get to the end of this process last week, but other issues arose and we said, okay, let?s give ourselves more time to look at these issues. Some other political parties came to complain that if we do delegates, we didn?t contact them, we didn?t involve them; it is like unfair treatment. We are politicians and we said, okay, let?s us get time; let?s talk to everybody, so that we fulfill all righteousness even though we have an idea of our preferred party.

May we know the party you have settled for?

I don?t know. I can?t announce to you. I am not the chairman of the group. My own department is different. Mine is Contact and Mobilization and I am also in the Finance Committee. So I don?t have any say about the selection of parties.

Why has the Coalition foreclosed the PDP? The PDP Governors Forum and its National Assembly Caucus have given a proviso, to be part of any coalition that it must be under its platform. Don?t you think, being the largest opposition party in the country it should be considered?

But I just gave you a criterion. We don?t want to enter a party that has intractable management problem. You must admit that PDP has an intractable management problem.

Even with the Senator Bukola Saraki committee?

The Saraki Committee? Look, we are talking about today. We are talking about a decision soon and they are talking about a reconciliation team. When will they finish, when will they take a decision? But, you see, it is an ongoing process. We that are forming a coalition to form a big and strong party, it isn?t the end of the game. As we form a big party, we strengthen it; we will still go out on marketing. But right now, we don?t have a party. We will announce a party. I am sure some sensible people in PDP will know that staying in a party with an intractable crisis is time consuming, it will wear you out. Some of them will get fatigued and look for better opportunities. I believe that in the long run, some PDP people will come to us. When they go through their convention, some will come. In this our coalition, we have PDP members on individual basis, because, frankly speaking, discussion right now isn?t built around political parties. I am APC, but I am not in the coalition as an APC member but as an individual. So, that?s what is happening. Atiku is there; he is PDP and quite a number of his loyalists are attending our meetings.

Do you still lay claim to APC?

They don?t like me now. Anytime I say something, they just abuse me.

But you said you worked for Peter Obi in the last election?

But I am APC until I resigned. I have to resign or they have to sack me. None of that has happened. Even when I was doing Peter Obi I said I am not in Labour Party.

But what you did is tantamount to anti-party?

Yes, that?s democracy. It isn?t slavish; it isn?t religion. Political party isn?t a religion. Even in religion, people proselytize; you change. Look, the way we are going, eventually, it is to voters at the polling booth that we will appeal, not any political party. Let the governors continue to defect, we don?t care. If we wake up one morning and heard that all the 36 states governors and the FCT are in APC, we don?t care. It is immaterial. They have only 37 votes; maybe we add their families. Maybe you get 1 ,000 votes. The voter is what we are targeting and the voter is the victim of the system we are against.

You have mentioned in passing that you have people from the South in this coalition. You mentioned the like of Rotimi Amaechi. But there are those with the opinion, whether rightly or wrongly, that this is a coalition built against Tinubu and the South and they are accusing the North of a wrong sense of entitlement to the Presidency of Nigeria. How do you disabuse the minds of those with that conviction that it isn?t a gang against the South?

So what? If the South has a president in the office, and that man is decimating the North, decimating its people, allowing insurgencies to run riot, allowing kidnappers to run riot? we have no infrastructural development visible that you can see in the North. We have ministers whose budgets are not funded. If the North is treated with disdain like this, by your son, from the South, have you come out to say, don?t treat these people like this? The Southerner should come out, talk to him, don?t treat these people like this. Your majority votes came from them. You are talking about a sense of entitlement when your brother is decimating me? Hunger is pervasive in the land; we can?t go to the farm and our only occupation is farming. You can?t go to the farm because they will kidnap you; they will kill you. So, what are we going to do? Sit down and say because the president is from the South, let us give him another four years, so that he can finish what he has started!

But the president?s spokesmen will argue that the insecurity that you are talking about predated this administration. It was there under Buhari.

Well, they are paid to say so. That?s their work. They are paid to say so whether it is true or not. They are paid to conjure all manner of frivolous excuses. You should ignore all his spokespersons. They are sycophants by occupation. If Tinubu met insurgency, banditry, must he allow it to continue? Let?s agree that it started when a Northerner was president , it should continue? His duty is to stop it. If he can?t stop it, we shouldn?t complain? It is increasing. It is his duty to let it run riot like this? Yes, Bola Tinubu didn?t start it, but he didn?t stop it. In fact, he allowed it to run riot.

But the accusation is that you aren?t giving him time?

Time? Before he is ready, we will be dead! At this rate, we will all be dead before he can finish it. There will be nobody in the North. It is not that I hate Bola Tinubu?s administration. Let them do the right thing and we will praise them. Let me be able to travel to Kaduna by road without prayers and fasting. Let me be able to go to my farm to go and work safely and return home. That?s all I need. Let me be able to make my workers happy because they are able to feed themselves with the salary I pay them.

Finally, with benefit of hindsight, do you regret your action for abandoning Tinubu?s 2023 presidential project? You stayed away and joined Peter Obi, because of the single faith ticket of APC. Don?t you think you would have been able to push for redress, if you had stayed back?

With the benefit of hindsight, I thank God that I took that decision that time. I prayed, I jumped and I celebrate the fact that I am not in this government. What would have happened to me if I were in this government where my church members spend two days without food? Can I go to church? Can I go to my mechanic because he can?t pay school fees from the money he makes? I would have been the most miserable person on earth. So, I thank God that if that?s the reason he used to cut off relationship with this government, I praise God. I am a Christian; my tribe, I think we aren?t up to one million but we are all educated. We are in one local government but we have many professors. Education and farming are the only thing we know. Most of us are Christians. Then you come out and say, I can?t find a good Christian in the North. I told them not to look for vice-presidential candidate only from the political class. These Bishops are so educated in diverse fields, they can be VP. What was Professor Osinbajo? An academician. Why can?t you get a Northern academician, who is a Christian and make him a VP? So, all the Christians in the North don?t have the competence to be VP? I am a Christian and you say my people aren?t qualified for it. Apart from the injustice, it is insulting. It was the only opportunity we had as Christians in the North to produce a VP and you said we weren?t qualified. The Christians in the North, we suffer here. If you go to federal ministries, every Christian is complaining about marginalization. Now, it got to a level that the system Is bold enough to deny us what we are entitled to by political convention. Those are the issues. The Muslim- Muslim ticket symbolizes the marginalization that we are facing. At that level, I couldn?t accept It. (Sunday Tribune)

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