Babachir Lawal was a former Secretary to the Government of the Federation. In this interview with ADEBAYO FOLORUNSHO-FRANCIS, the chieftain of the defunct Congress for Progressive Change dissect his problems with President Bola Tinubu?s government, what Atiku and El-Rufai coalition seeks to achieve, the division among the CPC bloc, among others

PDP governors recently met to rule out the idea of the party merging into any coalition ahead of 2027. How does that affect Atiku?s ongoing coalition talks?

I can speak on behalf of Atiku. But every time we had discussions with members of other groups working toward a coalition, the name PDP never came up. Everybody we talk to about PDP, the answer we get is that it is an incurable virus. I have attended almost all the meetings of all the groups. But I have never attended a meeting where the PDP was one of the parties up for consideration among those of us discussing the merger. Of course, Atiku is a whale in the PDP. I don?t know whether his plans would have been to bring the PDP into the merger. But you know the modalities we have been discussing are whether we could form a brand new political party, that?s one option, or we could all as a group join an existing party. That has been our direction. As we analyse the parties that we could join, I have never had anyone mention PDP.

So the governors are just humouring themselves. Quite a lot of the governors and existing stakeholders have reached out to some of us, saying that the PDP can be repaired. But anytime they say that, we see the scenario getting worse. So I don?t think those in the PDP are serious people.

Is Atiku an active member of this coalition?

Oh, yes. I think he is even more committed than everybody. I can say that based on my analysis of the active role he plays in getting all the groups to come together.

How are we sure Atiku is not doing that because of his 2027 presidential ambition?

Is it a sin if he does that? Of course, he could do that for his personal sake or to support another candidate. But that has never been the issue in these merger talks. The issue is for us to get together and join or form a big party in which all contending interests are accommodated, and then allow the democratic process to sort out who becomes what. First of all, the democratic process as to who becomes the leader of the new party. Then, as we approach the election, we do congresses, conventions and finally, a presidential election convention where a candidate will emerge. That has always been the mantra. We have agreed to keep aside personal ambitions, including those nursing the presidential race, until we get to a stage where we?ll be discussing how to hold a convention to elect the candidates. It has happened before. Almost all the mergers that had gone down were like that. Everybody will see a man who has probably told his wife or his friends he wants to be president. But in our (merger) talks, we all agree that going alone would be a waste of time. So none of the candidates, I mean none of the presidential hopefuls that we know, has given a condition that he must be the candidate. Our focus is to form a big party and allow the democratic process to produce candidates.

Since you ruled out the PDP, are you considering SDP as your next target?

We have never looked at the SDP as a stand-alone option. As I said earlier, we analyse the parties. There are conditions among the parties that we need to see. First of all, the party constitution must allow for the mass entry of certain groups and it must allow for the accommodation of the interests of those groups. If, for example, a particular party has a constitution that says you must be a member of the political party for four years before you can contest. Obviously, that rules out that party. So we look at all these small issues and look at their constitution and things like that. So, SDP was one of those that kept coming up. Whatever you might say about it, the SDP is the oldest surviving political party in Nigeria now. So it has been around for many years.

What are other options?

There are many options still open to us.

Is the Labour Party one of them?

Some of our members are in the Labour Party and are involved in the merger talks. Eventually, if we determine that a particular party offers the best conditions for all of us, we will join it. If it?s the LP, why not? If it?s the SDP, why not? Clearly, we have not been talking to the PDP (laughs).

If Atiku and his loyalists agree to move in the direction of your merger, isn?t that a sign he may dump the PDP?

Of course, it?s clear. It goes without saying that if he joins the mega party we are forming, he is obviously no longer in the PDP. He can?t belong to two parties. But why are you so focused on Atiku?

Bode George recently vowed on a live television programme that the PDP will deny Atiku the 2027 presidential ticket.

I have never been in the PDP. But I have respect for Bode George because I had some small military background, and he was a governor when I was a student in the military school. So, I respect him as a superior officer at that time. But as to his political value, I think his age and his military experience should have taught him by now to take a back seat, go to bed and enjoy his retirement. I?m sorry to say this because I don?t like to put down other people?s achievements. But Oga George has never delivered much in terms of popular votes in Lagos State to the PDP. His positions as a former army officer, a former governor and a former this or that give him some credence. But I don?t think he can speak for the PDP. I am sure the PDP as a party will handle the matter.

Are you aware that the CPC bloc is divided? While some founding members claim to stand with Tinubu, we understand other aggrieved chieftains may be heading to the SDP.

I consider myself one of the leading lights of the CPC from day one, even before the party was registered. We were Buhari?s people. I was with him in APP, ANPP and CPC. I understand the spirit of the party because I remember, like in my state, when we were forming the CPC, we went to literally every village and community to sell the CPC. I believe that after the merger into APC, the legacy party ceased to exist. But then politicians don?t give up their groupings, which is probably driven by ideology. But you know, we have other groups that we all come from. So the CPC refused to die because the CPC has an ideology of sacrifice. The CPC members can go on with or without material benefits. From my experience, I?ve known that. They are sincere and committed people. That?s the background I want to give you. I am one of those who, for obvious reasons, want to form a party to challenge this APC government. I am fully committed 100 per cent. I attend all the meetings and have an eminent position in the group that we are forming.

So what?s all the obsession about Buhari?

Now, we are moving out of the other parties to form a mega-party, quite a number of us in the CPC are people who have known General Buhari right from our adolescent ages. So we know him. Some knew him because of the politics, and some because he was the president. So we can read him. He is like an open book to us. For example, if we, as former CPC members, decide to form a party or join a group that is forming a political party, it is only incumbent on us, out of respect, to tell our former leader, who was like a father to us, that we are tired of where we are. It is our right to say ?these people? are doing this and that to us; we, therefore, feel that we go and try our hands somewhere. But in a democracy, it is not likely that we will be completely subservient. After all, we are driven by what our people tell us. So we?ll ask Buhari, and he will advise us. Peradventure, he might say, don?t do it. And we will tell him why we must do it. In a democracy, we can agree and disagree. I mean, there?s no dictatorship. There?s nothing like ?do it by force.? We understand ?these people?, and the APC governors went to greet him on Sallah. I was not there when they were talking, but we eventually found out what they went there to say. And, of course, we know how to handle it. This government, I?m surprised they are behaving the way they are. Initially, they tried to be respectful to Buhari. Eventually, they lost all sense of decorum and decency and started attacking him. You will hear them say, ?We are doing this because the government we inherited was terrible. We are doing this because Buhari was allowing the Fulani herdsmen to kill people.? Suddenly, they came out with a frontal attack on the man. Even for that alone, we are obligated as his supporters, as his followers, to defend him. These guys have given us a reason to come against them because the CPC is a Talakawa Movement. It?s a movement that had the needs and feelings of the lower class at heart. That is our ideology, which we learned from Buhari. The primary aim is to serve the disenfranchised, discriminated people in society, which this government has taken as a religion to cause suffering and marginalisation. It is as if the sight of a poor person annoys them. So they want to starve them to death. Now, if you are an original CPC person, it will pain you. It will push you into action involuntarily to change this type of system that is out to destroy and marginalise the underprivileged in society. That is what Buhari stands for. That is who he is and what we learned from him. You must stand up for the underprivileged in society and fight injustice and hunger. This is why we need to stand up and do something. Luckily, we are all in it.

What about other CPC members who don?t share the same ideology as those seeking to form a mega party to stop Tinubu?

Well, we know that not everybody can withstand hunger. Even in the CPC, there were black sheep. Some people joined the CPC hoping to get one or two things. But at heart, they were not CPC. Such people might not be able to sustain hunger. This government has made the majority of Nigerians hungry. And not everybody is like us, who can?t tolerate hunger or injustice. Not everybody among us can tolerate tribal or religious bigotry. So, some of us have to come out and say, ?Hey, let?s get together and do something?. Of course, those people who came in as mercenaries and for other benefits are free to leave. After all, there are still positions. There are still positions that Bola Tinubu will give out. I don?t think the ambassadorial list is complete. I don?t think all the board members are complete, and there?s a rumour that he might even rejig his cabinet. So, quite a lot of people are free to haggle for those positions, be it from CPC or anywhere. But for now, we just laugh when we know the calibre of people and the category of people they are. They know we know them. But we are bothered in the sense that we don?t know these people can bring themselves to such a low position because of political gains.

Did Buhari really give his blessing for your choice of coalition and purported mega party?

First of all, we don?t need his blessing. We only need to tell him what we want to do because we are adults. It is also not likely that we will go and tell Buhari to follow us. I mean, we are mature and intelligent people. Even if Buhari says, ?Hey, gentlemen, I will join you?. It is our responsibility to say, ?No. You?ve got to keep off. You are too big for us. We don?t want to involve you. You are part of this government. You remain there until you get fed up.

Are you still a bona fide member of APC?

Did they tell you they have sacked me? They just don?t invite me to their meetings. We just look at each other eyeball to eyeball. They don?t talk to me, I don?t talk to them. But I have not joined any other party. Even when I supported and worked full time and energy for Peter Obi, I have not left APC. I am now part of the movement to form a new political party. For now, I have not left APC. In Adamawa, they know my capabilities. I don?t look for elective positions. But if I decide to support you, I will put so much energy and resources into it. I have quite a substantial influence on a lot of people.

Don?t you fear that the APC leadership could sanction you for rebellion or anti-party activities?

I would have been happier. If the APC expels you, it is a chip on your shoulder. I mean, what is this? Who is this man running the APC? The only rol? of the APC chairman now is to follow Bola Tinubu and queue up at the airport to shake hands when he?s coming and going. He does nothing else. This man doesn?t even call for meetings or release press statements. All he does is wear an Agbada and go to Kano to cause social disaffection. You know, I know the man so well. He?s my friend. He has an NGO that they call Ganduje something. They call him Kadbul Islam, the defender of the Muslims. I think Ganduje is better off as a Muslim missionary than as an APC chairman. He?ll perform better there. So if he had retired as a missionary, given the scandals that followed him, he would have simply gone back to focus on religion to find restitution with God for the evil he did while in government. I think it would have been better for him than an old man, half-bent, following Tinubu up and down. These are two octogenarians running the country. He?s not even running the country.

Is it true the coalition plans to field a southern candidate to serve a four-year term if he wins in 2027?

I don?t know. I have not attended a meeting where the coalition discussed candidates. I told you we are going to form a political party that will get to the convention ground and elect a flag-bearer for the party. It could be a Southerner if he?s the one who wins it, and it could be a Northerner as well. But it will be down to the democratic process. There is something I keep telling people. As northerners, we must be deliberate and determined to get the next president who will get us out of the woods. This is because the North has now become a massive refugee camp. Sometimes, for two and a half days, you have not eaten. Nobody is paying school fees. Nobody is travelling or going to the farm. Tell me, if you don?t go to the farm, how do you eat? So the North is a massive refugee camp, and we must be deliberate in choosing who the next president is. He must be somebody who has the interest of the North at heart and who will address these issues so that we live as free citizens of the country. Now we are practically second-class citizens, with nobody in government. The ministers, all they do is put on Babaringa and pose as if they are something. When their budgets are not funded, they are not doing anything. The parastatals that have money are not held by northerners. There?s no help you can render to anybody in this government if you are a northerner.

Are you saying some northerners were not given prominent positions, including the Vice President?

Which VP? Even in our time, during Buhari?s regime, the VP was representing the President in many things. Tinubu?s VP (Kashim Shettima) is just busy attending weddings and probably condolence visits. I?ve not seen him do anything different from that. He doesn?t do anything. I?ve not heard him representing the President at big conferences or occasions. If I were him, I would have graciously and honourably left the job. That position is a spare tyre. But in his case, it?s a flat spare tyre.

Both of you started well as friends in the past. What makes you hate Tinubu this much?

No, that is not true. How do I even hate somebody I don?t see? Who or what gave you that impression?

It is not hard to tell, even from your narrative. So what actually went wrong?

Life (laugh). I used to tell people that Bola is in Lagos. I?m from Adamawa. So, we met in Abuja. At the end of life, everybody will go in a different direction. I go northeast, he goes southwest; completely opposite direction. So, as I earlier said, it is life.

Have you tried reaching out to him to share your concerns about the North challenges?

And do what? Are you saying he doesn?t notice that every appointment or employment recommendation that reaches his desk favours a Yoruba man? Are you saying he doesn?t see that the CBN Governor, FIRS Chairman, Finance Minister, and others are all Yoruba? The only thing they probably don?t do in this government?though I?m not even sure?is write memos in Yoruba. How would I know? I don?t read their memos. But it?s possible. This is their government. They have appropriated and commandeered it. Everyone else is just a serf.

What if Tinubu decides to pacify you tomorrow?

Pacify who? It is not about all this. You see, the problem with Nigeria is that we think that everything revolves around money and power. There are just some people God created who are not motivated by wealth and power but by a sense of justice and equity. So, no matter how much money you pump into them, they will not collect. No matter which power you give them, they will not collect. By the grace of God, I?m happy. I?ve never gone to bed hungry. Since childhood, I developed a liking for farming and started building my cattle business. Cows are like our bank. You get more money, you buy a cow and add. Since my childhood, apart from the land I inherited from my parents and grandparents, I continued to purchase, and I now have close to 4,000 or 5,000 hectares of land. So what am I doing if it is money I want? What am I going to do in a government where I?? going to be treated as a secular citizen? So why do I need to come and stay in Abuja here sitting on a chair, attending meetings and developing a backache? (The PUNCH)

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