Amid a surge in violent attacks on innocent civilians in Plateau State and other parts of Nigeria, including Benue, public calls for citizens to arm themselves in self-defense have grown louder. In this interview on Hard Copy on Channels Television, the Archbishop of the Abuja Catholic Archdiocese, Ignatius Kaigama, who previously led the Jos Archdiocese for nearly two decades, shares his perspective on why he believes arming citizens is not the solution and advocates instead for a comprehensive, global approach to ending the violence. He also reflects on the recent passing of Pope Francis, highlighting the values of simplicity and humility that Nigerian religious leaders can draw from the life of the late pontiff.

Enjoy the excerpts?

Congratulations on your 30th anniversary as Bishop.

Oh, thank you very much!

I know that there won?t be any celebrations this year.

You know the celebration would have happened but for the passing of our holy father, Pope Francis.

Let?s talk a bit about that mission of brokering peace and what that meant as a legacy for the late Pope.

It makes him stand out actually as a very formidable world leader who was more concerned about the peaceful nature of the entire people of the world without discrimination. Pope Francis taught peace and preached peace. I?m sure he dreamed of peace, everything he did was about peace. As you cited, he was so concerned about the war in South Sudan that he had to bring the leaders together and went on his knees to kiss their feet. In the ongoing war in Ukraine, Pope Francis never rested; he was in constant touch with the people by telephone, and he sent emissaries. He sent Cardinals to go and check on them and see what could be done.

What was his role in terms of humanitarian aid?

He sent food items, he sent ambulances, and many other things just to support them, and tell them he was with them. So, he definitely will be remembered as a great peacebuilder in the manner of Jesus. Jesus said that blessed are the peacemakers and he (Pope Francis) is blessed because he was a real peacemaker.

I remember watching him make those phone calls to Gaza, calling Gaza and saying asalam alaykum to them. What kind of lessons do you think religious leaders in Nigeria can learn from the legacy of Pope Francis?

His simplicity, accessibility, and approachability, marked him out as the leader. Look at the car he used; he could have used the best car in the world, but he chose not to. He could have as many private jets as he wanted, and the people would donate to him if he wanted, but he didn?t have a private jet. He always rented an aircraft to travel to wherever he was going. So, that is the kind of person (he was).

Are you pointing out the fact that a lot of the religious leaders in Nigeria are a little flamboyant with private jets, and big cars, and living that lavish lifestyle? Is that something you frown about?

It?s not a hidden fact, it?s obvious. They even are very loud about it; they believe that it is a sign that God is blessing them, and this is transmitted to their followers, who believe that the more you have materially, the more God is blessing you. So, there is that rush to go to where God will bless you, wealth will flow, and you are living a top-class life, and so forth, but that was not for (Pope) Francis. He just lived very humbly and he didn?t even live in the Apostolic Palace where normally there?s every grandeur. He lived in Casa Santa Marta, a simple place, and remember I met him there several times when I went to Rome for the meeting of the pontifical council for the promotion of the new evangelisation, and I stayed in the same hotel as he did. Pope Francis would always come down for breakfast, lunch, and supper.

Did anything strike you then about him?

That evening, I went down to have my supper and I went to check what was available and then I was busy picking what I wanted. I didn?t know that the Pope had left where he was sitting and was waiting for me to finish picking my thing and I turned around, something instinctively told me to look around, and I said, ?My goodness.? I froze; I couldn?t even greet him because I was so shaken. I didn?t expect to see him. So, that is to tell you how this man came so low.

Look, at the poor, the marginalised, the migrants, the crippled, and all those. He was there for them and you saw how he would kiss them, he would hug them, he would bring them very close to him. So, that is a leader, a leader who is concerned about the underprivileged, the downtrodden, and the grassroots. He was there for them, not for himself.

But unfortunately, our leaders, once they get into positions of power, it is about themselves ? I, me, and myself, ? so egocentric, and so self-centered. That is not leadership.

There?s something Catholics call piety, long-suffering. Those were things that were taught, but the gospel that we hear these days is one of wealth, prosperity, blessings, and things like that. Can both gospels work together, or are they at variance with each other?

Not long ago, I was speaking in a discussion like this, and a pastor said that the church is a business and that God is a businessman. I couldn?t understand how that could be. I asked him, ?Please, could you complete the sentence that the church is a business?? It is a business for the salvation of souls. It?s not a business to make money, flamboyance, and luxury. This is not what the church is all about. It is to help people to know God better, to serve God better, and to lead them to salvation. So, there is no gospel called the gospel of prosperity; we only have the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where do you think it (the gospel of prosperity) came from?

This (gospel of prosperity) is an artificial creation of people who are lost in the quest for material things. I said the only gospel we should preach is that of the cross. Remember, we just concluded the Lenten period, a period of sacrifice, and inner transformation, a period when you identify with people who are suffering, you sacrifice, you fast, and you abstain from things of pleasure to assist them. You reach out to people in different forms, and the cross is at the heart of our Christian religion. Unfortunately, we?re removing the cross. Whenever you mention the cross, people get kind of pissed off. They don?t want to hear the cross; it?s about the wealth. Which church is preaching prosperity? Which church has promised you will be very great and rich? Jesus did not teach us that.

In Catholic Church, over the years, we?ve heard Pope John Paul II famously apologise for a lot of things. We also saw Pope Francis giving that same kind of apology on the issue of sexual molestation and things regarding children in the church. So, the Catholic Church as a force for good in the world that we are in right now, bearing in mind the dynamics of our world, are we making headway as Catholics? Are we winning more souls to God? Are we a force for good in the world?

The statistics I sent to Rome for 2024 show the remarkable growth of the church and increase in numbers, and the impact of the Catholic church is undeniable. For God?s sake, without the Catholic church, I wouldn?t be here. You wouldn?t find me here. My village is in a remote area of Taraba State. Where I was growing up, I did not go to school or do anything until the Catholic church came. My elder brothers were privileged to go to school, and then, they directed us to school and the church, and from that school, today I am the archbishop. It wouldn?t have happened. I wouldn?t have been able to read. We had only one or two primary schools in that area, and you needed to belong to a certain religion to be admitted, and if you didn?t, then you were out.

So, the impact of the Catholic church worldwide cannot be questioned; people look at only all those negatives.

Are people too hard with their criticism of the Catholic church?

Definitely, the church is a human institution, but it is also a divine institution. People just look at the mistakes that are made by the frailty of human beings. If I make a mistake, that doesn?t rubbish all the nearly 45 years I have been a priest. I?m 30 years old as a bishop, and you cannot say all these years I have been engaged in doing bad things. But what if I make a mistake someday? It rubbishes everything and that is how people are judging the Catholic church. They forget the world-class education, and health care that they brought to people who would otherwise have either died or suffered.

They forgot the nooks and crannies the missionaries entered at the risk of their lives, they forgot that in Shandam, Plateau State, where the Catholic missionaries came, they kept dying nearly every week. The graves are there; they kept dying and they kept coming. They knew they were going to die but they came, they forgot all these sacrifices, and they just focused on child molestation. Where does it not happen? Even in the family, I?m not defending all these immoral things that people did. If a priest did something wrong, it is wrong. But for God?s sake, why not be sensible? Why not be reasonable?

Let?s talk a little bit more about some things that you?ve been talking about, but I want to go back to when the Nigerian Catholic bishops paid a visit to the President (Bola Tinubu) and I remember that afterward, there were a lot of things that were said. In fact, you even got some criticisms from people online, even from the Presidency, some things that didn?t even seem very complimentary. What happened after the meeting with the President?

Well, we usually have many meetings, and you know that in Nigeria when things happen, you set up committees, and probably that is where it ends. But for meeting with Mr. President, it was not the first time we met him. We met him even before he became President. When he was campaigning, I remember two or so weeks before the elections, we met him and we had a one-on-one encounter. We engaged him, gave him a memo, and told him what we wanted to see in a new Nigeria. We just went to him to remind him In March; it was the reminder to tell him, ?What we told you, we still stand by them,? and those who don?t understand the Catholic church and how we operate, some of them thought, oh, we went there to collect some envelopes. It?s a very terrible insult to the integrity of the Catholic bishops. We know how to get money if we want to, and any money we get, goes back to the people; we give it out.

After the meeting in March, did he say anything?

Well, he was very gracious and, as usual, very nice and received us well, but we?re still waiting for practical engagements and what will come next because we raised some issues.

Are those issues that you can share?

Well, it?s well known to everybody, the insecurity in the country, the poverty, the hunger, the prices of things, and all that. If they have changed, you would know. I don?t need to tell you, but we did do that, we didn?t go there for our private interests. We didn?t go there to seek contracts or to ask for money or anything. Each time we go to the Presidency ? remember he?s not the first president we have visited. From the time of (the late Sani) Abacha, (Chief Olusegun) Obasanjo, (Musa) Yar?adua, we?ve gone consistently to speak on behalf of the people, but those who are so worldly minded and very parochial in their thinking believe that when you step your foot into the government house, you have gone to ask for money. I say what a terrible insult.

You were Archbishop in Jos (Plateau State) for 20 years. What?s the problem in Jos?

I can?t tell. I used to say how I wish I were in the security (sector) so maybe I would be able to really dig, But I?m a priest, and I only deal with the consequences.

The governor is saying that this is a genocide, do you think so?

Well, the genocide, it?s a serious assault on human dignity and human lives. This is it: I don?t know what he means by that, but all I know is lives have been lost, and in a very consistent manner.

We?re at a point where we cannot say the same things that we?ve been saying for the past 20 years, like let?s not stop fighting. Is this (violence in Plateau) a fight?

Yeah, I spoke to some of the chiefs, they are my friends. When I was in Jos, I had all the (phone) numbers of the chiefs, whether Muslim chiefs or Christian chiefs, and I remember a dialogue centre I established, a peace and reconciliation centre, and it?s still there in Jos. So, we used to meet. I used to invite them each time there was a crisis. I called the chiefs, I called the young people, I called the politicians, and we used to brainstorm and cross-fertilise ideas, but it didn?t stop the crisis. But at least, it did help. So, a chief was asking me, ?Where are you? Why can?t you come and continue this?? I said, ?Look, I?m in Abuja so I have another issue to deal with.

If you could have the audience of the President, if they called you into one of those security meetings and say, ?Look, we need someone who?s been there, who has interfaced with these people to come and give us some advice on what we can do going forward to end the crisis, at least in the Plateau,? what would you say?

We need to be sincere, but beginning with the authorities. When you send security agents there to deal with these issues, you should give them a free hand to do so, but you would most time hear a general or senior police officer telling you they haven?t had directives from Abuja yet, or they?re about to do something and they were asked to stop. I conversed with one general who was retired prematurely. I would say, he told me how he was ready to deal decisively with the situation, he was ready to penetrate the nooks and crannies of where these crooks were hiding, and he was doing it, but before you know it, somebody would say ?Oh this man has come here to kill people of our religion or people of our tribe?. And then an instruction comes from Abuja saying, ?Okay, he?s not being helpful, so remove him,? and that is how they go one by one.

But is that the solution? Before the criminals came, they (security agents) were better armed and remember it is their profession to kill, so even if you arm yourself, they come better prepared, so what does your arm do?

What is your message to them?

I said there should be a global approach to this. I just said to my people, let?s keep being hopeful, and hope is what has kept us alive. Easter was all about hope. Jesus after three days in the grave, after the terrible suffering He went through, after being treated as a criminal and condemned and all that, buried, He rose. So, despite all these, we shall rise again. Nigerians, I believe, by the grace of God, will rise again. Nigeria will rise, and with the right leadership and direction, I tell you this is going to be a formidable country, a great country.

I want to be able to see a black person in the seat of the Pope, a Nigerian, maybe someday, maybe even you.

Oh, my goodness. Any lay Catholic man qualifies to be a Pope. Yes, so it could be anybody. (Channels TV)

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