In a recent AIT interview, international human rights lawyer Emmanuel Ogebe revealed how Sunday Jackson?s death sentence was brought before the same US congressional subcommittee that he successfully advocated for Boko Haram?s Foreign Terrorist Organization with. He addressed a broad range of topics including; how IBB tried to capture him as a corps member, how Nigeria risks losing Abacha loot to Trump administration, and how more Adamawa indigenes are on death-row for self-defence than Fulanis on death-row for massacres of thousands of Nigerians. Here is the transcript of the FOCUS NIGERIA interview:

Amechi Anekwe: Hello and thanks for staying with us. This is focus Nigeria my name is Amechi Anekwe. Now in 2015 more than a decade ago while farming in his farm in Numan local government area of Adamawa State, 20-year-old student Sunday Jackson encountered a herdsman who trespassed upon his farm and allowed his cattle to graze on his lands and crops. When Jackson confronted the herdsman, he was met with resistance leading to the herdsman attacking Jackson with a knife. Despite sustaining injuries Jackson Managed to disarm his assailant and In the heat of the ensuing struggle struck back fatally stabbing the herdsman who stabbed Jackson on his head and legs. Jackson was arrested and put in prison for seven years and of course uh his arrest led to a series of Trials that saw death sentence heaped on him. In a shocking move after already spending all these years in detention, Jackson was convicted and sentenced to death by hanging by the high court of Yola. The court opined that Jackson should have fled after disarming his attacker instead of fighting him.

Regrettably the Supreme Court of Nigeria upheld his death sentence last Friday in the first part of our discuss today we shall examine the somewhat busy development. My guest is Emmanuel Ogebe, Emmanuel Ogebe is an international human rights lawyer he is a managing partner of the Washington based us Nigeria Law Group.

After him we turn our attention to developments in Nigeria political nature, the convener indigenous people of Nigeria Nandi, who offer perspectives on the state of political parties ahead of 2027 general election. A lot happening already, uh the thoughts of me appear to have been perish Coalition, uh talks ongoing within the different political parties. Struggle for survival and struggle for dominance with some suggesting that uh other parties introduce crisis in opposing parties to weaken them. We will be taking look at all these but that will be after this short break. Do stay with us!!

Short Break:

Amechi Anekwe: Thank you so much for staying with us, as we launch straight to the first part of our discourse of death sentence in Nigeria. They come regularly even though were told for years now the political authorities that are supposed to sign the death warrant to prompt execution are shine away from doing so with campaigners across the world insisting that the country, the world should do away with death sentence, you must uh commit to uh some prison sentence uh they claim. But some countries including the United States, some states there are still carrying out death sentence in Nigeria one Biz incident took place in 2014 we?ve tried to lay the background for you. Sunday Jackson sentence to death uh in the process of selfdefense let?s welcome our first guest for today uh attorney Emmanuel Ogebe, international human rights lawyer and managing partner Nigeria us Law Group he joins us virtually from Washington the United States. Thank you so much Emmanuel for joining us.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Hey, thank you very much Amechi, it?s always a pleasure to join you.

Amechi Anekwe: Yeah our pleasure uh to have you again now let?s uh take a look at the story of Sunday Jackson. I?ve tried to share with our viewers, uh how all this came about but perhaps because I know you?ve been involved with this case. Lay the background to this death sentence imposed on the young man.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yeah I think you did a fair summary, I just want to clarify that the incident occurred in 2015.

Amechi Anekwe: Okay

Emmanuel Ogebe: And we?re now in 2025, so this happened 10 years ago. It only came to public limelight in 2021 February when the news reported his death sentence. So I flew to Yola and I met with you know his uncle and I visited him in the prison. I then met with his legal aid counsel and to be very honest, the case was so straightforward that it wasn?t a difficult case for the legal aid counsel to handle but the decision was shocking.

Now let me say this because based on the fact, this young man woke up that day he did not know the Fulani man from anywhere, he didn?t have any issue with the Fulani man. So there was no premeditation that he woke up and plans to kill somebody, he went to farm (because Sunday Jackson had a wife and a child) and at the Farm, this Fulani trampled on his crops and when Jackson said he should move his cattle away, the man now brought out his knife and started chasing Jackson.

He caught up with him, stabbed him on the head and so at that point Jackson tried to kick him and he stabbed him on the leg. Now when I saw the Judgment, I read it and to my shock the judge said that Jackson should have run away instead of staying to fight the man and it makes no sense. So we were expecting that on appeal to the court of appeal it will be overturned, to our shock the court of appeal affirmed the decision.

Amechi Anekwe: So, let?s clarify, when Jackson stood behind, he responded with attacks on the herdsman right?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes

Amechi Anekwe: So, was the herdsman killed?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes, the herdsman ultimately died. But the first issue is that the first injury Jackson sustained was on the back of his head, you can only injure somebody on the back of the head if that person is fleeing from you and you stab him from behind you know if the attack is frontal you are face to face so it proves even the the nature of the injuries show that Jackson was running when he was stabbed from behind. So then he was stabbed in the leg, so for the judge to say that Jackson should have run away, how first of all he ran and the man caught up with him. Remember that the Fulanis are nomads, they used to live in the forest they are more agile, and they run faster. Then secondly, he stabbed him in the leg. How is somebody who is stabbed in the leg, able to run? So the Judgment bears no semblance to reasonableness, equity and good conscience.

Amechi Anekwe: So the high court sentenced him to death?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes!

Amechi Anekwe: It was upheld by the Appellate Court, the appeal court?

Emmanuel Ogebe: It was upheld by the appellate Court.

Amechi Anekwe: And affirmed by the Supreme Court. So all the layers of courts were in agreement that he should be sentenced to death. Does it now tell someone that perhaps there?s Merit in what they?re saying?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Well you see if there?s merit, we would like to see it. As at yesterday when the lead Counsel Sunny Akanni went to the Supreme Court to obtain a copy, the copy Is not available.

Amechi Anekwe: The certified true copy?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes! Right now as we?re speaking, all Sunday Jackson knows is that he is going to hang to death, but he doesn?t know why because the reasons have not been given. I was in the Supreme Court on Friday and the Judgment took less than two minutes all I heard was case dismiss. Those two words are taking away the life of a father, of two children, two daughters. This is not the way Justice is done, they should have had the decency to explain why this man?s life is going away. We?re still waiting to see a copy of the Judgment.

Amechi Anekwe: Well, the CTC will offer explanations but once the Supreme Court have decided, the other appeal is to the Almighty, but I know you have been taking some Advocates even Beyond Nigeria, you were in Nigeria but you?re back in Washington. I know yesterday that this matter came up at the US Congress, now tell us efforts you?re making to perhaps get International attention and international pressure to see how I don?t know whether it?s possible for the Supreme Court to re decision and tell us more the advocacy you and your group are taking to see if this young man could be okay.

Emmanuel Ogebe: First of all, let me look at one of the legal strategies we?re exploring. You see legal atrocities have occurred in Nigeria?s history before, one of the Locus classicus that we were taught in law school, is the case of Bello Rabiu v. The State. In that case, a man who was sentenced to death was executed before his appeal was heard and so the incident was so obnoxious that the Supreme Court invited all the Attorneys General of the states of Nigeria to come and address it. Now, how can we have a situation where a man whose case had not been determined was executed. Now in the case of Sunday Jackson this is what is very interesting, it?s not just a criminal issue but it is a constitutional law issue why because the Nigerian Constitution says that anybody who died because somebody else was protecting his life and his property from that person cannot be said to have been deprived of his life.

In other words, the Nigerian Constitution protects your right to kill someone who tries to attack your property and your life, Sunday Jackson was facing both scenarios; his life was in jeopardy and his property was in jeopardy and he was defending it. The Constitution says that the death of that man is not a deprivation of his life. In other words, Sunday Jackson did not commit a crime. Therefore, because of this constitutional matter or issue we want to see how it can be addressed again by the Supreme Court.

Amechi Anekwe: So you may want to reapproach the Supreme Court for a review?

Emmanuel Ogebe: We?re studying all the issues there because again usually the Supreme Court is the last destination but there is a significant constitutional question raised here and we may need to call the Attorneys General of Nigeria to come address the court on this specific issue because a man is about to die for a right that the Constitution gave him whichh was not respected. Now let me go back to international advocacy. You?re right I returned to the US a few hours ago, after attending the unfortunate court session and we were in Congress yesterday.

Amechi Anekwe: that?s US Congress?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes, the US Congress. The Africa subcommittee, the very same committee that designated Boko Haram as a foreign terrorist organization in 2013 through my advocacy, had another session yesterday that was scheduled to discuss designating Nigeria a country of particular concern for egregious religious persecution and indifference or intolerance to the killing of his citizens. And the issue my learned colleague Nina Shea raised the issue of Sunday Jackson which I had briefed her on before I left for Nigeria and while I was in Nigeria. And she raised it that Sunday Jackson has been sentenced to death and confirmed after defending himself.

You see, self-defence is recognized in every legal jurisdiction and philosophy in the world, Is one of the oldest cannons. In fact, the self-preservation is the first law of human nature. So what the Nigerian Supreme Court has done, is violate the first law of human nature, which is self-preservation. So we brought this up in the Congress yesterday and the Congress is obviously going to act on a resolution and the the chairman of the committee has expressed his desire to go to Nigeria. I?ve been with him to Nigeria on multiple occasions in the past and that?s how we got Boko Haram designated, he went and he saw eyewitnesses. So it is our expectation that such a visit will follow. But in addition to that we had a meeting with?.

Amechi Anekwe: Attorney General of the Federation. As it come.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Well, that may be a possibility uh on some of the previous visits I know that in addition we actually had high level Presidential level meetings and so on and so forth.

Amechi Anekwe: Okay.

Emmanuel Ogebe: In fact, it was one of our Conventional Delegation that urged President Jonathan to establish the victim support fund many years ago. So at this point we don?t have a date setting as you know there?s a new Administration in town and things are just taking shape now, the current chairman of the subcommittee representative Chris Smith has just been reappointed into that committee before he was moved to China under the previous speaker. So we?re happy we?re excited he?s a known individual in Nigeria and in Africa and we think that things will move forward. To be fair to him yesterday, he asked look is Tinubu trying to improve things what do you think is going on? And if you look at his remarks, he?s hopeful that the Nigerian government would be more receptive because under Buhari, Buhaari was you know fanatically proof at the expense of every other Nigerian ethnicity. And so there was an expectation that uh you know President Tinubu not being a Fulani would respect Nigeria secularity and try and be fair. But consistently you know, all the four panellists were asked yesterday whether sanctions should be imposed and three said yes, only one abstained and she abstain because she works for the US government and she didn?t feel that she was in a position to adopt a stance on that issue.

So I have to tell you this issue is getting attention here, we have a Joint Task Force for the freedom of Jackson and you know we have a representative in the UK who is also going to mobilize the UK Parliament. Let me say this, Fulanis have been coming into communities and killing Nigerians nobody has been arrested.

Amechi Anekwe: Okay let?s, this may not be substantiated, I think we have to leave that out because they?re not here to defend themselves and I know some arrests have been made and other. But you?ve made some interesting point not just in Washington but across other world capitals pressure groups coming up to indeed put pressure on the Nigerian government for a possible Supreme Court review of this judgment as it were. But let?s talk about what you do here locally we may come back to the international Forum. The CTC certified true copy not yet out, I take it to mean now if is out you study it in the more detailed manner that will indeed give you that plank to begin to see if we seek a review uh that will come any moment.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yeah! I mean we hope so you know, you see in the Civilized world you know you don?t wait for judgment this long let me tell you something, when I came to monitor the presidential election case of cases of 2023 as I was sitting in the courtroom at the court of appeal I was receiving judgments in matters that I filed in the US on my iPad, on my phone. You see and this is we?re able to travel because we can conduct legal business remotely, how can we were physically in the Supreme Court we came out we didn?t have a judgment up to now we don?t have a judgment. So we don?t even know what they decided and there were constitutional issues that we raised including the fact that the Judgment which should have been delivered in 90 days was not delivered for 167 days which makes it voidable on that basis alone. But let me take you back to something because I am a subject matter expert in my field and I testify in parliaments across the world okay. When I say that there are more Nigerians on death row for defending themselves against Fulanis than Fulanis on death row for massacring thousands of Nigerians, I have my facts and let me give you one. The only Fulani I am aware of who is sentenced to death for a massacre was for the killing of Father Reverend Father John Adeyi in Benue state which is where I am from and the number of Fulanis who were convicted for his death are fewer than the five Bachama Boys who were sentenced to death in Adamawa state for defending themselves against the Fulani attack.

Amechi Anekwe: okay, we agree you?re an expert in this field. You have your facts but perhaps when you send these facts to us we try to authenticate them because uh we are here to verify them. So we know you have them but it?s only when we do that I?ll be in a position to share but you have made your point quite clearly, the point is that there are more people convicted for defending themselves than the attackers that is it. We'll try to verify but there?s an important issue you raised, issue of death sentence. I said at the beginning uh that there?s this Global campaign to end death sentence. What?s your perspective on that?

Emmanuel Ogebe: You see Nigeria is one of the most incompetent countries in the world to operate a prison system, not to talk of to execute anybody okay. I?m telling you this because I was detained by General Abacha all right as a young human rights lawyer over this June 12 issue that now IBB has come to admit that we were right all along and do you know while I was in that detention merely for speaking out for the truth a young man who killed somebody in the market during the fight was imprisoned with me do you know that at that time in the ?90s he paid a a bribe of N70,000 and he was set free. He disappeared without anything okay, that is how people literally get away with murder in Nigeria. Let me tell you another thing that happened in that prison, in that prison we were four state house Prisoners, the man who had been there the longest over one year; what was his offense he broke up with his girlfriend the girlfriend now lied to Abacha bodyguards that when Abacha? son died, that this man was laughing. They came to his Workshop abducted him in a boot and dumped him in a prison and forgot about him, the man was languishing there for a long time.

One day when the Abacha bodyguards came to bring another prisoner to the prison, he saw him and greeted him and said I?m still here oh, when am I going to be charged, the man said do I know you, he said you?re the one who brought me here they dumped him there and forgot about him for a baseless issue. That?s why I?m telling you that Nigeria is incompetent to run a prison not less to execute anybody.

Amechi Anekwe: I know there?s currently going on a public hearing and sittings for a ministerial panel to carry out comprehensive reforms of our Correctional Services perhaps the government understand this but the most important thing is that they are taking efforts to correcting them.

Emmanuel Ogebe: My brother, I just returned from Nigeria this is not the only case I went for, some of the things I saw shocked me, do you know oh my goodness. The food that is meant for prisoners is shared by prison warders one of the ones that shocked me was I was told that Dangote brought bread for prisoners during fasting and as soon as they left the Dangote Foundation officials left, the warders shared it for themselves and gave prisoners one loaf for 20 people to share. The worst one is this and I will say this now so that they go and correct this issues, when interior Ministry and prison officials come on inspection to the prisons guards will go and hire Caterers with uniform they will come and demonstrate as if they are working there after the inspection they pay them off and they go away and the prisoners continue to languish and starve. You know what happens in Nigerian prisons oh my God.

Amechi Anekwe: Like I said, the government recognizes this and have initiated processes let?s hope and perhaps uh we should provide a support for them to see this through but I want you to stress that point on the issue of death sentence we should continue to allow it in Nigeria there are so many persons committed to death sentence but the governors of the states are not signing the death warrant. So there?s a high a huge number of uh inmates are waiting execution in Nigeria.

Emmanuel Ogebe: There are over 3,500 uh inmates uh on death row in Nigeria right now, but here here?s the problem with death sentence in Nigeria. A country that cannot protect its citizens from being killed by terrorists, a country that cannot capture the people who killed their citizens, is not competent to kill a citizen who correctly and effectively defended himself from what his government could not protect him from. Now let me say something, we have a country where Boko Haram terrorists who have killed Nigerian troops and Nigerian citizens are being granted amnesty, we have a country where Nigerian troops who were ambushed by Boko Haram and lost their weapons are in detention in Nigeria we have a country where our Bandits and kidnappers are armed and negotiate in the presence of Nigerian Army and walkaway Scott free and you want to tell me that a private Nigerian citizen who defended himself against an attack should be executed. There?s no way that we can have such a pecking order in which the Nigerian citizens life is the least valuable in our country that is not acceptable.

Amechi Anekwe: okay, your activism and uh human rights advocacy didn?t start today, uh in 1993 or just after then that was over three decades ago I can imagine how young you were then you were on the streets, you were a pro-democracy activist human rights Advocate and all that. You made mention of IBB?s book that reviewed a lot, let?s get your perspective on that.

Emmanuel Ogebe: okay, so let me say my activism started in University of Jos. IBB tried to shut us down and all of that but the first attempt when they came after me was when I was serving in Aba.

Amechi Anekwe: That?s youth service?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes, I did a program on the TV and it was a comedy sketch about you know Babangida and do you know that after that the SSS flew a helicopter to Aba to the TV station and picked up the producer and that they must produce me ? so the producer said ?he?s a youth copper I don?t know where he lives? that?s what saved me, I would have been picked by Babangida. But ultimately it was Abacha who picked me uh you know following the assassination of Kudirat Abiola when I called you know for judicial panel inquiry. I was taken to the Villa, I was tortured.

I?m one of the few Nigerian activists on Earth who was taken to the presidential Villa and tortured there, I was not supposed to come out alive but as God would have it God delivered me and I left because I was being trailed and I came on exile to the US. But I have continued to be an activist because the God who delivered me from the hands of Abacha will deliver me and has delivered me from Buhari and all the other desports who have ruled, and mis ruled Nigeria since. But now just hearing the story of IBB let me say something, IBB is smart but he?s shameless and the reason I say this did you know

Amechi Anekwe:you?re using a language

Emmanuel Ogebe: yeah I commended him that he?s smart yes and I said on the other hand he?s Shameless and let me see why I say it, I?m a lawyer I give facts and figures to support.

Amechi Anekwe: Yes but we have broadcast Codes and I know you are aware of it perhaps there are ways other ways you could have said because he is not here to respond to you, that?s the problem, so I have to give him that protection he deserves.

Emmanuel Ogebe: he has written a 16 billion naira book that is speaking for him that?s his defense but let me clarify why I said what I said. IBB released his book immediately after General Jeremiah Useni died.

Amechi Anekwe: But the books have been in the works, he?s been in the works he had promise many years back. Sorry I got to know directly from him it was well reported, that he would be publishing his Memoirs and and behold his memo are so he didn?t start yesterday.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Exactly, but the timing was when Jeremiah Useni died, you and I know the significance of Jeremiah Useni. Useni was the closest friend of General Abacha okay and what Babangida did was to lay all the blames for the anointment of June 12 on Abacha and the one person who would have contradicted him and debunked him, the last remaining person was Useni as soon as he died bam! He released the book. You have to understand when he?s called an ?Evil Genius? it's not a joke. the man Is very smart you have to outsmart him to understand him.

Amechi Anekwe: okay, you have made your point, I think but before I just allow you to go, because I met a lot of people who have said yes leaders take decisions and at the point they are taking decisions uh they see it as the best decisions and all that and the Abacha family has come out also to State their own side of the story but you?ve been in US now, for some time you?ve continued with your human rights advocacy, are you practiced to, are you licensed to practice in the US.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Yes, so I do have a license in DC as well as in Nigeria.

Amechi Anekwe: okay

Emmanuel Ogebe: But I want to quickly say that ironically there is an Abacha case here in Washington DC, where some of the loot is still in litigation long after he died. Some people have said that Nigerian presidents never loot money unless they have died. In other words, if you are alive nobody will open your secret if you die that?s when they will expose you. That case is still here now and I want to warn that Nigeria is at risk of losing that money because the Trump Administration wants to use it for a different purpose and this is what happens when your government doesn?t consistently look out for your interest, and this is one of the cases that I?ve been tracking.

Amechi Anekwe:Is Nigeria not showing the necessary interest in those cases?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Well during the Buhari administration, the Attorney General of Nigeria was the personal lawyer to abacha. So he had no personal interest in wanting to engage in those funds okay, he was compromised. But the sad thing now is that the person who is trying to obtain those funds for himself is now a minister in the current Administration, Bagudu who actually laundered the money originally on behalf of Abacha.

Amechi Anekwe: Another strong allegation.

Emmanuel Ogebe: My brother you should read the news.

Amechi Anekwe: That we will not allow here okay. Let?s leave all at that now just your last take. What?s human rights advocacy like in us?

Emmanuel Ogebe: Well I?ll be very candid with you, since the new Administration took over here the US is beginning to look more and more like Nigeria. We now have a situation where uh somebody was picked up in a University campus and detained because he expressed views that uh Trump did not like. We now have a situation where a billionaire who isn?t elected but contributed money to the campaign of the president is now cancelling ontracts and awarding them to himself. So even us human rights advocates in America now, Pro-democracy Advocates are now in danger because we?re now going through the Nigerianization of American democracy.

Amechi Anekwe: okay, quite interesting just like a revolving to hoping that it to get to a point where will be better than even the United States in terms of Human Rights situation.

Emmanuel Ogebe: Even right now our president in Nigeria is better than this one because he?s not a convict, think about it. The Department of Justice decided not to charge Tinubu, but they decided to charge Trump, that shows you that Nigeria is ahead in one respect

Amechi Anekwe: okay, Emmanuel Ogebe, International lawyer who joined us live from Washington. For that just to State clearly that the views you expressed are not ours, they remain yours and we have nothing to do with it.

We?ll go on a break now when we come back state of political parties in Nigeria do stay with us

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