A chieftain of the Arewa Consultative Forum, ACF, Dr. Usman Bugaje, has said there is a need to jettison rotational presidency in Nigeria, arguing that it has plunged the country into socio-economic crisis.

Bugaje who made a case for a collegiate system on the Morning Show, an Arise TV programme, also described the All Progressives Congress, APC-led, government as a disaster. Excerpts:

Are you saying that this idea of one good turn deserves another, which is that the South will do eight years, the North will do eight years, is already off the table? Does the North want to vie for presidency in 2027 and break the rhythm?

I think this is a very familiar conversation in the last 25 years. I think so much has changed that that kind of conversation is actually outdated. Yes, politics is about popular participation. Yes, inclusion is very important. Yes, people need to make sense or have good reasons to be able to participate. But I think what has happened in the last 25 years is the fact that we have tried these kinds of models of the North and the South and this and that, yet the country is only going down the drain. I think it is time to start a new conversation, to start rethinking. How can we have democracy with development? We are having democracy with all these things of North and South and East and West and whatever you have, yet the country is not developing. If anything, it is actually de-developing. It is going down the drain.

All the indices of development are taking a nosedive. So I would rather say, yes, it is important that we recognise every part of this country and become inclusive, but I think we will be losing out on the challenges that are facing us if we continue with all the problems we have to start talking about the North and the South.

I would rather be part of a new conversation that starts thinking about what team do we require to fix this country that is about to break down, that is about to be run aground by reckless and irresponsible politicians who have held power in the last 25 years. They are not ashamed of the fact that they have not performed well, yet they are still talking about ambitions. Everybody has an ambition to be this, ambition to be that. People are talking about their turn. What have you done with those turns? They have destroyed this country. We can?t continue with this kind of conversation.

Yes, like I said, we have to recognise everybody, we have to include everybody, we have to consult, but this should not deteriorate to a level where we start looking at turn-by-turn kind of presidency, or we become fixated with this formula of the North and South or some people say: ?this tribe has not had its chance, so they have to have their chance?. Those tribes who had their chance, what have they done? Is it a tribal matter in the 21st century?

Why didn?t you express this position when the North benefited from the turn-by-turn arrangement?

For me, this is not the first time I started talking about it. I talked about it from 2019 through to 2023. Before then, even from 2015, I have consistently said Buhari?s presidency was a disaster. And there are so many other ways that, you know, things that he did by, you know, putting too many northerners in the security sector for no benefit at all from the North. And I thought Buhari?s experience is itself sufficient evidence that this idea of putting somebody from one part of the country to become president doesn?t really work. It doesn?t make sense. Because what do you want him to do? To favour his own part of the country and to abandon others? This is very na?ve to say the least.

The point I am making is that you can achieve inclusion and not at the expense of development. There is no part of the country that has monopoly of competence. There are competent Nigerians among the South-West, among the South-East, among the South-South, North-East, North-West, North-Central.

Why don?t you pick those competent Nigerians from the different parts of the country to fix and run your country? Why do you go for people who are barely educated, people who are crooks, people who clearly have no idea of where to take this country, who cannot engage the world, who don?t even understand. All they know is primitive consumption and primitive accumulation and very perverse tastes and consumptions and just simply running the country down. This is why I said inclusion is a very critical aspect of governance and you can achieve that and still achieve development by bringing more competent people.

There are technocrats who can fix the energy sector, who can fix the transportation sector, who can improve all the infrastructure. The few that have come into government have been elbowed out. Some of them have been chased out of government because corruption will not accept the kind of thing that they want to do.

And I feel very sad. I mean, we and quite a number of Nigerians, and by the way, across the board, not just the North, the East, the West, we stood up to the military during the time of Sanni Abacha. We fought for democracy, but this is not the kind of democracy we want to see. We want a democracy that takes cognisance of competence and recognises knowledge in the 21st century as the greatest capital and tries to mobilise. Nigeria has a lot of these talents, and has a lot of competent people. Why don?t we bring them into governance? Why don?t they lead the process? Why do we need some politicians who don?t understand the world in the 21st century, who have no record of doing anything competent anywhere, and all their life is a life of sleaze and corruption, and because they have accumulated money through those corrupt practices, then they buy everybody off, and now we have a National Assembly that is literally for sale, money, I mean they cannot stand up to the President on anything.

So this is the point. I think we have to change the conversation, because we need a new narrative, and we have to be constantly aware, and I keep repeating this fact, that 2030, just another five years from now, we are going to be 300 million. Already today, we have more than 33 million people on the verge of starvation.

The United Nations, UN, bodies quote these figures. We have a deficit in grains alone for last year, more than 30 million metric tonnes. We have 20 million children out-of-school, the highest around the world. We have all these terrible statistics, which we are not addressing. These politicians are not discussing these matters. They are discussing my ambition, my time, who will be the next President. We have to form a coalition to chase President Tinubu out, just like we did with former President Goodluck Jonathan. When you chase him (Tinubu) out, what are you going to do? What are you going to offer? What is the new thinking?

How do you suggest that inclusivity and representation are balanced out?

I think the presidential ticket should not be clouded by this North and South thing. I think we have to prioritise knowledge, competence, courage and character. In fact, the most important thing is the character. Honestly, for me, yes, the North, in terms of size, is 78 per cent of the size of the country. The whole of the states of the North-East, you can put them in Niger and they will still have another space for the whole of the size of the North-East, and even there will be land remaining. Yes, that is it. This is geography. There is nothing we can do about that. But the point I am making is that we must not lose sight of the fact that this country is sinking, and if we continue with that kind of North and South thing, then we lose sight of the fact that this country cannot develop. I think we need to change the conversation.

Would you be talking in this manner if a Northerner was the president?

I did talk this way when President Buhari was there.

But in 2019, the ACF declined support for only Buhari, but said they would support other Northern candidates for presidency?

If you want the ACF?s position, then you should get the spokesman of the ACF to answer that question. I, as Usman Bugaje, have not made that statement, and I don?t believe, and I have made it very clear that while inclusion is important, I do not insist that a president must come from a particular part of the country beyond the fact that we should make sure that we prioritise competence, we prioritise character, we prioritise the courage.

There is an unwritten rule that says, you scratch my back, I scratch your back?

I don?t believe in that. I don?t believe in scratching backs. During the time of Buhari, I was at the forefront in criticising the way he was ruling. And in 2019, I didn?t support him. In 2023, I didn?t even support the APC. I made it very clear. The point I am making is that there are people who say the kind of things you are saying, but I am not one of them. I have my own view. I have my own understanding. I am a Northerner and I care for the North. I feel every part of this country should be developed. Otherwise, we cannot have peace. In fact, you have to go global. And you know this very well, that a lot of global institutions are trying to reduce inequality around the world, the climate change, because whatever happens to one part of the world is going to affect the other part of the world. The globe has become a village.

So, the point I am making is, let us not continue with this conversation of the North and the South. Let us change the conversation and start a new conversation about how we can get competent people with character and courage to run this country.

Do you believe Atiku Abubakar can get the job done?

In 2023, I supported Atiku Abubakar because of all the candidates that came out, he was the one that I thought was going to do it.

Is it safe to say you are an Atiku man?

I am not an Atiku man. I am not anybody?s man. When I was in the Action Congress of Nigeria, ACN (defunct), Atiku left and I remained. If I were his man, I would have left with him. So I am my own person. And I don?t believe in anybody?s man. I believe that people should have the courage of their own conviction.

If Atiku runs in 2027, would you support him?

No. No. In fact, if you have been listening to what I have been saying, it is that this idea of supporting one candidate with whatever combination or balance of the ticket to go into the Villa to lock the gates and then the wife would become the Queen Elizabeth of the first and the children would become some prince and princess is outdated. We must not allow this country to fall into the hands of these kind of people. I would rather, and I am not talking about Atiku here, I am talking about all of them. I would rather we do a collegiate leadership where we get the best and the brightest, and there are many of them in this country, to come forward and salvage their country. I am not going to support someone because he has been an old politician who has been around for some time.

The National Publicity Secretary of the ACF had said Nigerians were sold an anti-corruption dummy in 2015. From all you have said, you are not satisfied with the last eight to 10 years of the APC government. What are some of the lessons that we can learn from where you feel like they haven?t performed very well?

My view about the APC government is very well-known. I have made it very clear. I have put it in writing. It has appeared. And if you want the view of the ACF, they have a spokesman who can speak for them and probably defend whatever they say.

For me, the APC government from Buhari to date is a disaster for this country. I am not saying the PDP is going to do any better. I have said this several times that I don?t trust the APCs, the PDPs, the APGAs, the Labours. I don?t trust any of these political parties as they stand at the moment. What I would want, what I think would work for Nigeria is a collegiate leadership made of the best and the brightest. We did attempt to do that.

If you remember, we launched a platform called Rescue Nigeria Project. What we were trying to do then, and we have not given up, is to get some of the best and the brightest, people who can really fix the problems of this country, not politicians who are just out to make money and who do not even understand the terrain. They are oblivious of what is happening around the world. And therefore, they don?t read books. They don?t engage in debates. They don?t share information around the world. And they are fixated about how they distribute rice to these poor, ordinary Nigerians who have no idea of what is happening.

I want to speak to the phenomenon of incumbency. Because earlier in the week, we heard a commentary from former Governor El-Rufai where he was saying that he thinks President Tinubu will get the Goodluck Jonathan treatment.

You have already expressed your views about the performance of President Tinubu. You have also expressed your views about former President Buhari?s performance. However, he was able to get a second term. Why do you think these two Southern presidents are the ones who are predicted to only do one term? What do you think are the decisive factors?

I think you need to get back to the time of Jonathan and try to see the kind of position I have held. As far as I can remember, I have been consistent on this matter. If you cannot perform, you leave. What is the performance of the budget of 2024 for this particular president? My figure is that the budget performance was only 22 per cent. Do you think these kinds of people should be allowed to continue? Forget about the fact that that he is from the South or from the North or from anywhere. For me, wherever he comes from, if he cannot perform, he should leave. Simple.

So this idea of saying that because I am from the north, I need a northern. We have tried it. Even those who tried it, they have now seen that this does not work. What will work for this country is people of character, people of competence, people with the courage to be able to do the right thing.

And there are many. But the political culture and the political arrangement will not allow them. And you don?t wait for these politicians to allow you. We have to struggle to find our way, find a platform, mobilise the country and try. This incumbency that you?re talking about, look at what?s happened in Senegal. I mean, Macky Sall was there, and yet these young people, one of them even came from the prison. Things are changing. You can look at the events in Kenya. So these things are, I mean, the dynamics are different.

If you had not supported Atiku in the last election, who would you have supported next?

Honestly, I didn?t know Peter Obi enough to support him. I have been in this business for 25 years, and I saw there are ways you measure people. You size them up. And so the people that I saw around him are not people that are ready to take the nation together.

They were all basically reacting or angry about a particular part of the country. They were all fuming and trying to go on a vengeance. So that was my worry. And I would have supported Adewole Adebayo of the Social Democratic Party, SDP. He comes across to me. Just listen to me. Because he comes across to me as somebody who understands the terrain of the SDP. He comes across as somebody who understood this country. I don?t have a full background of what he has been. But as a person, he comes across as somebody who knows what he wants to do. (Saturday Vanguard)

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