In this interview with selected editors, the Chairman of United Nigeria Airlines and Nigeria?s iconic entertainment hub, The Dome Entertainment, Prof. Obiora Okonkwo, bares his mind on the security situation in his home Anambra State. He also speaks on the expectation of the Anambra people from their state governor and gives germane reasons why President Bola Ahmed Tinubu should reshuffle his cabinet and send dead woods packing. Deputy Editor, YOMI ODUNUGA, was there.

YOU were known to have been critical of the governance structure especially in Anambra State. Lately, you seem to have been quiet. What?s been going on?

Well, I have not been quiet actually unless you talk about matters concerning Anambra State. But in terms of life, I have more than my share of being busy. As you may have known, I am not a full-time politician and do not believe that politics is a profession. It must be a vocation. When you are into politics and you are willing to offer selfless service to people, then, you come and play. If you find yourself in a political position, you dedicate your time to it and when the season is over you should be facing your daily job; your source of income, as the case may be. So, I have been very active in my area of business. I have been very, very visible, both in the media, each time, discussing the state of the nation.

I have also been visible in one of the sectors where I play, that is the aviation sector. I have also been very active in the social sphere. But as far as Anambra is concerned, yes, Anambra politics, I haven?t. It was deliberate. Deliberate in the sense that when the campaign for governorship was over, and a new government was put in place, one felt that there was a need to give the government time to stabilise.

The governor needs time to work to fulfill his promises, or, to start laying the foundations which one can see and say yes, he is on the way to fulfilling his promises. I remember one of my interviews on television where I was asked to assess the Gov. Chukwuma Soludo administration. That was in his seventh month in office. I made it very clear to the programme anchor that it was probably too early to assess the governor. I said that I would give him one year before making an assessment. The one year has come and gone. But looking back, I do not see anything that would enable me to make a very reasonable assessment. I have waited for two years. The two years are gone and the more I look at things and see that things are going from bad to worse, the more I get worried.

The elite and the critical stakeholders seem also to have been overwhelmed. And there is this kind of unusual Anambra elite conspiracy of silence which made me think that it could be assumed that we are conspirators in this whole very dangerous situation. So, this is why I feel that I can?t keep quiet any more. I cannot remain silent any more. And, there wouldn?t be a better time to make my voice heard than now.

When I look around Anambra State, I see that it is becoming a ghost state. This is because of the security situation. We know there is a general security situation in the nation and majorly in some parts of Nigeria. We knew what the security situation in Anambra was when Soludo took over. We also know of the genuine efforts that his predecessor was making to contain the security situation then. Those things were quite heart-warming, but looking at it now, things are not as they ought to be. If there is anything better than worse, I will apply it. And the most unfortunate situation is that there seems not to be anything going on in terms of a visible plan or strategy, or even investment in the security architecture in Anambra State to make things better. That makes me wonder if it is the design that suits Soludo; a design that will keep people away from the state and he thinks that is the cheapest and easiest way for him to have a second term, which now seems to be the only agenda on his table. And this is because he is an intellectual narcissist. He is someone who believes only in his own knowledge and does not think that other people know as much. People like him have never made good leaders. That is why Anambra is in a mess.

Some stakeholders in Anambra State may disagree with your assessment because, when you go around the state, people still hail him as Soludo is the solution which was his campaign slogan during the election. Don?t you think these people see what the elite like you don?t see or refuse to see?

Well, this is not about writing Soludo off. There are things he can do. He is a great man, no doubt. And he has done well for himself as an individual. Probably by his assessment, and those of people around him, he has done well. However, I am looking at Anambra from the perspective of the promises that he made by himself. Do you remember the promises that he made? The Dubai, Taiwan, and Hong Kong promise? It is from that perspective that I assess his administration. All of us understood what those promises mean for Anambra state. But, what we are seeing on the ground is far-fetched. And then, again, you see the government doing things, engaging in certain behaviours which may matter to him, but for me, they are not necessarily addressing the problems of the people even in the interim.

I can only say that he gets high on his dose. That?s what I can see going on. It?s about ego then. This is because when you come to a state where there is no security, where there is no social and economic life, where Mondays have become unconventional, additional weekends, where there is no life beyond five o?clock, where people are going on the street with their hearts in their hands, where the elites are deserting; and nothing tangible is seen to be happening towards addressing these issues, especially where there are daily occurrences of kidnapping and robbery and in very brutal ways. And the government does not even seem to take action. And the government does not also engage with people that matter in the process of finding lasting solutions. Many people who have options have left the state. The people that are left behind are probably there because they don?t have options. And the sad reality is that those who are there now are not only faced with insecurity but also, pummeled by all sorts of taxes and the shenanigans of raising revenue in a most crude way that is known to mankind, in a very dehumanising manner. Living in Anambra state now, from the way I look at it, is quite terrorising and traumatising. For me, therefore, with all these things going on in the state, I cannot just say that I believe in that solution philosophy. Rather, I will say emphatically, without any doubt, that Soludo is the problem and not the solution.

Looking at the way you?ve painted the picture of insecurity in Anambra State, somebody could argue that governors are not actually in charge of the security apparatus of their states because of the federal command structure of security management organisations of government. Don?t you think you are too harsh in blaming the governor?

Why do we have different tiers of government? Each tier has its responsibility from the federal to state to local even to the community level, It has remained so. There are security threats that are left in the hands of the federal government. Besides, why do we have that title for a governor who is the Chief Security Officer of the state? In my state, we say that the traditional rulers are the Chief Security Officers of their towns, so we all have the responsibility and each individual is also the chief security officer of his environment. I think that this is about not having what it takes. Why would somebody like Soludo take home about N2 billion monthly in what is called a security vote and from every information available, does not spend more than N50 million on security? I agree that the state has security apparatchik, from the Police, DSS, military, and paramilitary service, which are federal agencies, but they work in the state to sustain the security and peace of the state; and they report to you as governor. You do not need to be told as a governor that no matter the vision or dream you have for a state if you don?t have an enabling environment, security-wise, you cannot actualise anything.

The greatest asset that Anambra has is its human capital. When these human resources are not able to come around to transact their business, whether they are social or economic, and are not comfortable visiting and enjoying the community of their kith and kin at home, then you are depriving the state of the fabric that propels its growth. It is like depriving someone of oxygen. This is exactly what has happened to Anambra state under the leadership of Soludo. As you know, Anambra is known to have created a social industry where people come home for huge chieftaincy title taking, marriage or funeral ceremonies etc., which have gradually become part of the people?s way of life. But today you see more of our people doing these things outside the territories of Anambra. These ceremonies have helped to develop and grow ancillary businesses in the state through which people make income and pay their taxes to the state.

However, these businesses are now suffering and dying gradually as a consequence of insecurity. And, to make matters worse, Soludo, in his deliberate programme to stifle the growth of the state for his benefit, is also using some utterances and actions, and then promoting some kind of funny laws from the State Assembly to dissuade people from elaborate burials.

Seriously, I wonder how someone chooses to bury his deceased parents or family members should bother the government. Look at it this way! If you are going about and saying don?t print posters, banners, or brochures for burials, did you forget that people are living and paying taxes to the state and who are in the business of printing? They also make money from such jobs. Why frustrate them? So, what I am saying in essence is that economic activities are carried out effectively where there is a suitable environment and when people can go around freely. Imagine that at six o?clock, life shuts down in Anambra State. In some parts of the world, and even in a normal situation, you can equate both night and day economy to 40% to 60%. In some places, you could say that the day economy is 60% and the night economy is 40%. In some places it?s 40%. In Anambra, we have lost almost 60 per cent of the economic capacity. I haven?t heard anything from Soludo or his administration, even to express concern about it, even though he?s an economist.

In spite of this assessment, Anambra will soon be going for another election and Soludo will run. But there seems to be no opposition to challenge him. So there?s a feeling out there that he?s already coasting home to a second term. Could this be the scenario?

I am not here to speak for the opposition. I am expressing myself as an authentic and eligible stakeholder in Anambra State who is concerned and worried about the situation. I leave voters in Anambra state to decide who wins the next governorship election. More importantly, I leave it to God to give us who will be the next governor. So, this is not necessarily about if he will come back or not. The issue is that he is there for now and so far he is presiding over the affairs of Anambra State, not with his resources or his family resources but with the resources of Anambra State, it is time to call him out to know that he is not doing enough as he promised.

He Is not doing enough as we expected and he is not utilizing our resources, our commonwealth, for what matters more to the people but more of what massages his ego. I am more interested in what matters to the people and that is what he has to do. If you have grown through the daily business process of buying and selling, like those of us who went through the main market, you will know that what you offer is what the people want and not what you want. Offering only what you want is ego-tripping. When you offer what the people want, it means that you are closer to the people and you hear them.

You don?t just sit down somewhere as a governor and then all you want to do is what will boost your ego by building whatever you want and labeling them solution this and solution that. The people are shouting out against multiple taxes and asking you to stop. These are things that matter to them but you continually take life away from the grassroots meanwhile development should have a bottom-up approach. As you now know, there are no activities at the local government because he has stifled that tier of government and withheld their funds. As you know, I am from Idemili North LGA and my local government area is one of the largest in terms of population size, voters population, and even revenue. My hometown of Ogidi is the capital but there is no single thing I can point to as what the state government has achieved in the area despite the huge local government monthly allocation and IGR from the LGA.

But Soludo is your friend. Though you belong to different political parties, is it not possible that you could still have called him and offered some words of advice? Why haven?t you done that?

I have known Soludo for over three decades and he is my friend but this is not about our friendship. It is about making him live up to his promises and give us that Anambra of our dreams, or, the Anambra of his dream. Also, it is because he is my friend that I am worried for him. I am also worried for our people. I am worried because we have dependent people. We have people who are looking up to us. We have our responsibilities in this state. It is even becoming very difficult for me to carry out these responsibilities because of the environment. So, part of the things which are our social responsibility is to go home and be with our people. Listen to them. See what you can do to assist them. I have some calendar programmes. I have been carrying out for over 10 years ?Christmas festivities, the New Yam Festival, and other activities that are supposed to warm up the environment, bring joy and happiness, and offer some help to people. Those things are closed because I can?t even go home. Imagine that for the first time in over 50 years I did not spend Christmas in Anambra State. Not that I cannot protect myself. That is far from it. I can protect myself because God is with me. However, the issue is that when you go and you have a social obligation to each other, you invite some of your friends to join you. Some of them must come because it is you. But that puts them in a very difficult situation because they will be in fear and even you won?t be at rest. Recently, I buried my uncle. I know what it took me to secure the environment to ensure the safety of everyone who honoured us with their presence at the funeral ceremonies. The sad thing is that even community efforts to secure the environment go without support from the state government. I have not had any community say that they are getting support from the state government every month. The people are now forced by the situation to provide for themselves, even for infrastructure development. Communities are getting together, taxing themselves for infrastructure development. So, what is the function of government? And Soludo will proudly tell you that he has redefined the PPP (Public-Private Partnership); to become PPCP (Public Private Community Partnership); what a disgrace! It simply means that he is abdicating his responsibilities as government to the people. He is more interested in commissioning projects developed by the people, not ones developed by his government. And the saddest thing is that what he is doing now appears to be his best because he is still looking for a second term.

You are one of the elites of Anambra, and from the way you speak, though you don?t speak for the Anambra elite, somebody will say that if all other Anambra elites were as worried as you, perhaps things would have changed. Is this a fair assessment

Worrying is not enough. I speak for myself surely. If other Anambra people have a different impression, maybe they are standing in a position that I am not standing in and they are seeing things differently. I will not argue with them. But just take it that speaking is not even enough. That I am worried cannot change any situation. It will take me beyond my worries. But it will take more of letting Soludo know that we, as Anambrarians, have our minimum expectations.

We know Anambra. We know what Anambra is today. We know what it was. And besides, I cannot, in my real sense, be judging his performance based on what Anambra was, no matter how bad it was. I would rather judge his performance based on what I know is the potential of Anambra State and how much he is moving closer to realising that potential. So that?s why I can tell you that really, I have nothing to smile for. I have nothing to be happy about. It is a big disappointment and I hope that he hears that. This is for no other reason but to call him out to know that this is the time to review his programmes and focus on things that matter more importantly to the lives of the Anambra people and the state than the craze for going for a second term. Because if he gets all his promises right, his second term will be a walkover.

Don?t you think that the present government acts the way it is doing because, perhaps it feels that there is no strong opposition to shake it up?

It has nothing to do with opposition. Even if you have the biggest opposition around them, he cannot offer what he doesn?t have. That?s what I can say.

He probably doesn?t know better, because if he knows better, he should know that what is at stake is his name, his legacy. He wouldn?t need any opposition to push him. I don?t know which opposition we had during the Dr. Michael Okpara era. Dr. Okpara came with his vision and he was driving it and the legacy lives beyond him. Soludo should be thinking about legacy. It is not just about the opposition. By the way, why should it be the opposition that would drive you? It should be about your vision. Opposition should not determine your legacy and your achievements. It should be a vision and your commitment to realising them, not opposition.

So, I speak for myself as a critical stakeholder who loves his state. That is the only place I go for holidays and relax and be happy. It is something that I have long ago been doing even while I was a student abroad. I love to visit my hometown and stay with my people. But I am being deprived of that. It is not that I can?t just go and fortify myself, but how about other people? The painful aspect of this whole thing is that it even looks like Governor Soludo himself does not even know that there is this problem because he goes to events, picks the microphone, and tells the people that Anambra is a safe paradise. If you are a foreigner, you might be tempted to believe that because it is coming from a governor.

However, he drives around the state in multiple Armoured Personnel Carriers and all sorts of security, conventional and unconventional, in their numbers. Why would a governor who tells people that his state is secured be driving around in Armoured Personnel Carriers and security protocols like a warlord driving through enemy territory? Still, he asks people to come for tourism and investment in the state.

Somebody would say that you contested the election the last time against Soludo and you intend to contest against him and that may be the reason you are calling him out. How do you respond to that?

This is not what it?s all about. I don?t want to be distracted by that. I would rather want the person to say that probably Soludo has performed very well. If he has done so, I would be very glad. So what we?re talking about is what is not going well and I have been reasonable enough to wait and give time when I believe that there would have been a change.

Don?t forget that this is a government that came and declared a state of emergency on refuse dumps. Remember his first visit to refuse dumps after swearing-in? Today, refuse heaps have taken over Anambra towns. This is a government that celebrates building a water fountain at Ochanga Square. You made great promises but now celebrating the water fountain, things that a local government should be doing. So, I look at the potential of Anambra State and not the little things they are celebrating. Let?s talk about how we can galvanise the human capital of Anambra State for greater things. It is not about celebrating that you are working without borrowing. I don?t join in the celebration that I am working without borrowing. What does that tell me? I am surprised that somebody of his level, a former CBN governor, is talking about not borrowing as an achievement. Look, the capacity to borrow in any venture, whether private or government, is even a testament to your integrity and your credibility because if you are not found worthy, nobody gives you credit. I don?t see how a business grows, whether it is individual or state business, without borrowing. So if you tell me you don?t need to borrow, then you do not even have any investment that you can fund. It means that you don?t think of the future. Well, I am a businessman, and I know the importance of credit in any business.

There is a schism in the All Progressives Grand Alliance and the speculation is that Soludo may quit the party to join Peoples Democratic Party. Do you think that he will be an asset to a party like the PDP?

That is not my interest. He has the choice to go where he wants to go. I am not interested in those things. My focus is that as a stakeholder, I can?t keep quiet. So, if people think that it is a conspiracy of silence, I want to say that I am not part of that conspiracy. By the way, if he does, what happens, would that change the present story in Anambra State? My interest is that he does better for Anambra State; create a legacy and for a better Anambra state.

So within this context of assessment of the Soludo government, how would you assess the federal government, especially within the context of calls for the reshuffling of the cabinet?

Well, I have given different interviews in the past publicly, and my position on that is clear. It is long overdue to have changed the cabinet. You see, President Bola Tinubu, we know, is one person who has a reputation for identifying talents and choosing people who are capable of delivering results. He has done that effectively in Lagos State. Nobody can take it away from him. There is hardly any governor who has been able to rule and who has been able to do things with the best of talents that has not grown beyond the state and even gone international and has achieved an international reputation. We had expected that to happen here. It is understood that it took a lot for him to run the election.

He fought a whole lot of battles to get the ticket and surmounted obstacles to win, and there may not have been enough time within the period the ministers were chosen to pick the best for his cabinet. And then within that period, also, there were a whole lot of legal issues going on for the legitimacy and survival of the government. That may have been a thing of concern that one wouldn?t rule out the possibility that it could have influenced the composition of the cabinet. But he has won the Supreme Court case and has been one year in office; I think that at this point, it is time to rejig because he may have enough time to know who is performing and who is not.

He has been very patient. No person has fought as hard as he has fought to come to this level to become president and will be as patient as President Tinubu has been with his cabinet. And, I had said before that the only thing anybody around Tinubu owes him, if you love him, is to help him to leave a legacy. We have known him as somebody who is stupendously rich, and who knows how to spend money. So, making money can no longer be his focus. Therefore, the only thing I know that should be his desire, and those who think they care about him must do, is to help him leave a great legacy for this country. So I believe that the team that has been with him, surely have not proven that they are a winning team. And so I think he should know it, and they know it. I called for the change of the cabinet on the first anniversary of his inauguration. But if it is going to happen now, it is even overdue. It is highly necessary.

Do you think that this has something to do with the state of insecurity in Nigeria and the response from the government?

For over five decades, the world over has classified the economy as part of security issues. I think that was in 1964. Since 1964, it has been known that the state of the economy is part of the security issue. So, if the poor performance of the government is leading, as it is obvious, to very poor economic activities, then obviously, insecurity is not only when the sovereignty of Nigeria is under threat this security could be internalised. It could be self-inflicted. In this case, we have had, before this administration, even before the APC, there has been insecurity across the country. There was a government, economic activities were booming because there were efforts of the government to contain Boko Haram in its domain and all the other such things.

However, the dynamic of crime has changed. Crimes are now happening inside homes and neighbourhoods. And this is driven by hunger. If you recall, I had raised an alarm during the cabinet screening when one of the critical appointees had gone for screening and said there wouldn?t be any interventions in agriculture.

I had gone on television to warn about the dangers of the proposal. I had warned that if the agricultural interventions stopped, this country would face the challenge of food scarcity and hunger. It is now playing out. This is because all the gains in agricultural reforms and policies are eroded, and it has started affecting the stomachs of people. Not long ago, we had protests against hunger. That should be a wake-up call. In all of these, however, I still believe in the potential of Nigeria. I still believe that we do not have any problem beyond human comprehension. Our problems are internal and self-inflicted. For instance, Naira has no business to be above 1,000 Naira to the dollar. As a matter of fact, for me, the actual value of naira should be about 850 naira and that was simply because this floating of naira had been partially done even before Tinubu came to power.

During the Muhammadu Buhari era, we had the official and unofficial rates ran around 300 to 400 naira and the unofficial was 750 naira. So technically, if there was a strategic approach to it, it is just to bring up unofficial and official. So, it hovers around 700 naira. The worst-case scenario is 800 to 900 naira to the dollar. But, by and large, the naira should not be above 1000 naira. That is the real value of the naira; these other ones are speculative. Even countries that are at war, but with the right kind of leadership and focus, and are selfless and think of how it affects their people and their country, do well. Even countries that have survived economic sanctions like Russia have done well. Russia has about 200 sanctions. They are fighting a war in Ukraine but the economy of the state is even better than even economies of those who are pushing war on them. That is the difference leadership can make. Everyone is talking about Rwanda. The man of Rwanda picked a broken nation coming from a genocidal war and today he is the envy of many. I believe that we need not dwell much on the past and use it to keep stigmatising our country. Let us look at how we can make the best out of this situation. I still believe that this government can do that if they focus on what matters and know that we are not in campaign mode. This is time for governance and for them to govern they have to open their hands to all and sundry, open their eyes beyond those who are in the same political party to see those who can make an impact because of the success they will bring to this government will add to your legacy and that will even make your return easier. It should not be all about complaining. As a Political Scientist, I have studied this for four years, two terms tenure issue. Within this period, you can begin 60% to 70% of projects that have to do with enhancing people?s lives and complete them in four years. Look at all the humongous projects that are going on in China, they are completed within eight years. That means that your first tenure of four years is enough to turn things around. If you are lucky to have eight years, it is for you to do wonders. Look at the Euro tunnel, it is one of the wonders of the world; It was done in six years; not even up to eight years. We all see complicated and new projects in China done in three to four years.

So, when people look at the four years, it looks so short, and yes it is so short because they do not focus on what can be achieved within the period. Our system is such that governors get into office and from the first day are thinking of a second tenure. The only way you can achieve these things is to focus. If that is to be achieved with this government, they must open their hands and bring in patriotic people with focus and vision. That does not mean the president knows it all. That I am a professor does not mean that I know everything. Yes, I have an airline, but I cannot fly an aircraft. Life is about different talents and different capacities.

Therefore, in a country like ours, where you have numerous talents and capabilities, your job as a leader is to identify them and work with them, put them in the right places and you see things that seem impossible getting done. However, appointees also must be humble enough not to accept assignments that they know they cannot accomplish. There is no need for one to accept a task one lacks the capacity to accomplish just to be in office and make money. We should be able to also help the leaders by not accepting assignments that we know nothing about rather than accepting the same and then, start going everywhere complaining and wasting time.

At the United Nations General Assembly, Nigeria made a call for debt forgiveness. What would be your take on Nigeria asking for debt forgiveness while still taking loans?

I addressed my concern on this issue in the recent past when we started this economic summersault. Part of the thing that was putting so much pressure on our foreign exchange is debt services. It takes a larger chunk of our earnings. For the government to give itself some relief, there is a need to, as a low-hanging fruit, renegotiate and reschedule these debts, and give themselves some breather. Even if they cut off 50%, that is money going back to the economy, and, after that, you can go back to negotiate for debt forgiveness/pardon. They should not be shy to do that. I support it and believe that it is something that we should have done. But for them to be able to do it, it cannot be done on the platform of UNGA only, it takes much more than diplomacy and politics to achieve such things. It will take a lot of networking and individual engagements. I want to see in the next cabinet, people who are coming from IMF and World Bank families in different critical financial sectors.

There are Nigerians who are highly respected there and are doing well there. They have to be part of these critical sectors that have the responsibility to do these things. One thing about it is sitting face to face with your colleagues, those you know that can influence certain decisions to negotiate. If that person does not agree with you because you are not making sense, he may be forced to agree with you because you are colleagues and you are the one who asked. The biggest achievements in some of these things are not done publicly. They are done underground. When I look at the financial sector, I don?t see these critical human resources. And these may not be too far from the successes that the Obasanjo administration achieved when his government negotiated debt forgiveness for Nigeria. Recall the role the Okonjo-Iweala played with her team, those of them coming from the World Bank, sitting face to face with her colleagues, and talking to each other. I believe that was why we were able to achieve that under Obasanjo. So, the government should, as a matter of urgency, get this calibre of people and infuse them into the government and give them that assignment. I do not doubt that this is achievable. So far, I can?t see many of these sorts of people in government, especially in the government?s financial ecosystem. For the borrowing thing, you can?t stop borrowing. No government can do without borrowing. But the issue is to borrow and use it very well. I am a businessman and I know what I am talking about.

However, no country borrows itself to economic greatness. This means that you can only borrow to shot gap and invest in those areas that will enable and crystalise your economic growth and development.

Finally, local government elections have just taken place in Anambra State and the ruling party had a landslide. How would you assess the conduct and outcome of this election which is the first in Anambra since 2014?

From the information available to me, APGA has declared themselves winners of the entire local governments and the councillorships in Anambra State with unimaginable numbers. What can I say? I congratulate them. What they have displayed is how the government, or the governor, has used the powers he has in Anambra State; first to change the state electoral laws, within 24 hours, in such a very scandalous way and now has declared the state, both local government and council for APGA.

He has shown what the power of incumbency can do and I congratulate him. The only thing I will add to that is that he should also be ready to congratulate any other party that might come into Anambra anytime with a bigger power to take every elective position in Anambra State in the same way he has taken them now.

He should be ready not to complain but to congratulate them because when those powers are used to their favour, then, democracy is at work but when stronger power comes and overwhelms and the result goes differently, there is always tears and wailing about threats to democracy. But for now, the only thing I can say is congratulations to him. He has shown what he does with power and how he understands power. (The Nation)

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