Pioneer Director-General of National Orientation Agency (NOA), Professor Elochukwu Amucheazi, an octogenarian, is the Acting Chairman of Igbo Leaders of Thought (ILT).

One of the few in this clime that could still call a spade by its name, the globally acclaimed political scientist, in this no-holds-barred interview in Enugu, spoke on the intractable security challenge in the South-East, the plight of Ndigbo in Nigeria, the Bola Tinubu Presidency and other issues. He also delved into history, asserting that the Yoruba, not Igbo, actually planned the 1966 coup.

What’s your impression about Nigeria today?

The Igbo, I think, it is time for reflection. And the reflection should be an ongoing exercise. We can say from the word go that we have been in the forefront of the struggle to create Nigeria. With Nnamdi Azikiwe’s return to Nigeria in 1937, he got into the struggle of Lagos with Akinsanya and Ernest Ikoli. That was when we really started thinking of Nigeria. He took people to America and came back. Oyibo Odinammadu, K.O. Mbadiwe, Nwafor Orizu, and on their return, they moved on. That’s when politics really started in Nigeria. Although in about 1922, you had Herbert Macaulay creating a party NNDP but it was Nnamdi Azikiwe’s entrance and formation of party and struggle for Nigeria that even Macaulay surrendered to him. He soon died and Azikiwe took over. So, it was Azikiwe who started the whole thing. And it is Ndigbo who supported him.

I think that was when the British started hating Ndigbo. But before then, there was struggle in every village in Igbo land. There was a struggle to conquer Ndigbo. In fact, many Igbo communities swore an oath not to have anything to do with the British. Yes, I know my town did and it was only a few years ago that they absolved themselves from that oath. It’s been like that and we’ve never enjoyed the support of the British. The myth they created was that everything was okay in London but it was when we grew up that we saw that they also had beggars and so on.

In the 50s, there was a struggle. Obafemi Awolowo said, let’s split this country because it was a mere geographical expression. The Saduana said the same thing. But Zik kept on fighting. Even the Zikists were humiliated, banned and imprisoned. The struggle was Ndigbo but they kept on killing us with genocidal intentions, so to say, to wipe us out everywhere in the North. But our people were resisting, fighting and going everywhere. They populated everywhere to see what they could do for the good of this country. Zik and co kept encouraging people to stay back. And then you look at the 1966 coup and they kept on talking about Igbo Igbo Igbo. How many Igbo were there? It was the Yoruba who planned the coup. Adegboyega and the rest of them were the ones who planned the coup. But ultimately Ifeajuna had to lead it. If you listen to the Oputa Panel, you will get the feeling these people expressed shows you the bitterness, particularly the Fulani. These are the strange elements who came in 1803 and took over the North and destroyed their empire and appointed their leaders Emirs, spiritual heads and as religious leaders. And then you have the peasants. That is why you have poverty in the North.

I have travelled throughout the country as a pioneer Director General of the National Orientation Agency. I’ve gone to virtually all the local government areas of this country to see things for myself. The way they look down on these people and now they have faced the South. They name the airport in Lagos after Murtala Muhammad and even the Second Niger Bridge, they said they are naming it after Muhammadu Buhari. Even the Ebonyi man wanted to name his airport after Buhari. This is to show you the background of how we have been trudging on to survive. I saw what Dr. M.I. Okpara did – his educational and economic policies. I am always full of admiration. I am a beneficiary. The way he sponsored education in those days, everyone who went to Ibadan, UCI was on scholarship. It is either true mission scholarship or the government was sponsoring it. And we rose. Prof Kenneth Dike became vice-chancellor; Prof. Eni Njoku became vice-chancellor. Ezeilo, Onuaguluchj, Edoziem, Mbaemesia, Chinua Achebe, real academic giants came up. So, we fought hard against forces that tried to exterminate us. Buhari was said to have shed tears at Onitsha. Because he saw Awada and he was saying is this not the Onitsha that we destroyed? Because when you get to Onitsha, you will never believe that there was war there. That is why he contested four times, he became president and thought there would be a massacre in Igboland. He was provoking the youth, thinking there would be a massacre. Even Haruna said he wouldn’t apologise, but Gowon really apologised for what they did; the genocide. Is it through bitterness that you can unite a country? Is it true bitterness you can carry the country along?

No one is happy about the pace of development and about the way the country is set up. We need to move forward. Look at how people get into power now. Look at who and who are in power. People just get up and go into power whether they are qualified or not. Many of these leaders, the money they stacked outside this country is so much that they have come back in the National Assembly and in the Senate. Isn’t it painful? Are they really thinking of the country? This is not the way we were brought up at Ibadan. We were thinking about this country. We asked ourselves what we should do to move this country forward. We never thought of coming back to the East to marry. It was clear that we were thinking about Nigeria. I think that Ndigbo, I must confess, have done quite a lot. So, when you review all these things, it will make one angry. I pray that there will be a real change of heart for all of us to see what we can do.

Then on the issue of Nnamdi Kanu. Why should he be detained? For what reason? How was he arrested? He was arraigned in the night. It was during vacation that they used a vacation judge and since then he has been incarcerated. Look at the Boko Haram issue. How many of them are killing people in millions, waging war against the country; kidnapping people and so on. No one has banned any of them. Look at what is going on in Kaduna and Zamfara States. These are the people who opened the gate and they came in and are killing people. These are the people expected to invade the East. Anybody who thinks he can suppress Ndigbo is wasting his time. The people are determined. If care is not taken, things will not be okay for this country. As time go on, nations review themselves. Where is Czechoslovakia? Where is even Britain? Where is Yugoslavakia? They are not even as large as Anambra State and not talking of the entire East Central States. Gaddafi advised Nigerians and Jerry Rawlings also did the same. They said split Nigeria and you will be united. There is this conspiracy against the Igbo but they cannot drive them away. They are holding on. The Lagos people are not there yet. Were all these people from Lagos? Look at the Oba of Lagos threatening Ndigbo that he would drown all of them in the ocean. What was his background? Are we all ignorant of how things happen in Nigeria? Tinubu gives him a lot of money every month and he’s comfortable and so all his needs are met. It is our people who came together to make Lagos what it is. Where we go, we buy properties and we develop them. Now they want to drive the Igbo away. There are constituencies where the Igbo must win in Lagos. You cannot do anything about it.

In 1964, the Deputy Mayor of Lagos was an Igbo man. An Igbo was in the House of Assembly. I remember that NCNC won in the West. It was Awolowo who changed it and somebody like Fani Power (Fani Kayode) said that whether you vote for them or not, they would win. And they are the people who caused all these problems. It started in the West and then when they start talking, they say it is Igbo. Why are they against us? If we buy land, we develop it. How many of them come here to buy land? I know some Army fellows who were given land by governors. Did they develop them? They sold them.

I fought the war and I know how we moved down and the sacrifices we made. The struggle after the £20. How did we survive? I congratulate you young chaps in Igboland. Their determination to survive and their survival, no one can suppress us. It is only these fellows who don’t want to understand the Igbo thinking. I am not asking people to come home to the East because they threaten you. That is not the way. If Azikiwe and co think we need to be in Nigeria, then let’s be in Nigeria.

The general election was held on February 25, so, we now have a new government. What would be your advice to the government?

They are just a temporary government since they’re in court. I’ve already said something that in political science we organised a meeting, and I was asked to produce a paper which I did. That is the International Association of Political Scientists. I was blunt in telling them that Nigeria will break up like Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, British and so on. It will break up unless we start reorganising ourselves. Let’s stop pretending. We can’t keep on fighting and pretending that everything is going on well. What are we telling the government? Look at the constitutional conference. Look at the Oputa Panel…Babangida, Buhari and all these men, did they attend? So, why are you pretending? How many people are educated in this society? Look at the North, they don’t want them to go to school so that it’s easy to govern them. That is what the Arabs want. When you have a feudal society, that is what ancient history taught us, they will continue to control you until you tell the feudal lords that enough is enough.

Even if the government is temporary, they have made some decisions, some policies that need some interrogation. For instance, the $500 billion loan that has been taken to address poverty…

Under Muhammadu Buhari, how many billions was shared? How many families got? Did you get? I never got and my family didn’t get. I don’t think anybody in my village got. You know how these things are organised. It is organised for them to just take away the money. So, it is not a question of what they are doing, but will they be sincere? What do we do to really hold this country together to have a sense of identity? But the Igbo are not allowed to get into the administration. It was a miracle how Ifeajuna got into the army. We were together in Ibadan. We were not allowed to get into the army. The British studied us. We had in the university the CIA, the British intelligence and they were monitoring us. It was later I now realised the invitations, questions by the CIA. One of them came to my house and confessed what they did. So, it is not a question of what they are doing, but are you sincere if you get this money. No country is as beautiful as Nigeria. I have travelled a bit to America, South America, Africa, Asia, Europe and China. No country is as beautiful as Nigeria. We have everything; minerals and oil. The oil we have can feed this country. We can do anything we want. Look at Dangote, you are supporting Dangote to build a refinery for himself and a few people in the North. Who funded the project? It is Nigerian money and it’s just for a few people. Look at our cement factory. It is not functioning but theirs is functioning. Look at all the industries in the East: ceramics, the brewery, even the Mercedes, the farm settlement that Okpara organised?

About the industries in the East, is it not the responsibility of the governors to sustain them?

They can if they want but they are all Nigerian supporters. It is just like a people saying let me collect my own and go, let the future successors continue the struggle. Look at all the governors, once they withdraw, you see the palace they will build for themselves. In Enugu for instance, look at Chimaroke, see what he transferred to himself; the universities, law school, dual carriageway and those. Look at Ugwuanyi in Nsukka, same with Sullivan in Udi. I have spent some nights with each of the governors. We went to Umahi, we spent some nights and we discussed. The only person who didn’t receive us was Ugwuanyi.

You said the governors have not been able to reactivate these industries, but as Igbo leaders of thought, what was the core message you took to these governors?

We are talking about a sixth state for the region. We talked of the area around Lokpanta, where you have boundaries of Enugu, Ebonyi, Imo, Anambra, and Abia. Give them 15 years and they will make the place like Dubai. Just constitute it into a unit with proper planning. They will be like any nation in this world.

You are talking about industries, some of them cannot even get loans. How are you sure these things are not being done deliberately against Ndigbo? Go to the bank and they give you 25 per cent. You have to pay 25 million for 100 million in a year. How can you make such money? If you are doing business, what if you don’t have people to buy your products, how do you get the money? So you withdraw and that is what is going on in Igboland. Many of them are at home and they will explain to you that that is their position. Banks are folding up. Look at how they are closing all the Igbo banks. Which Igbo bank is alive? Look at Alaoji power station. Why is it that they’ve not built about six new ones? Look at Onitsha-Enugu Road; look at Enugu-Port Harcourt Road. Where is the railway? And in the North, you have model railways. But Igbo people, they’re working hard on their own.

Regional cooperation of the South-East governors is good. When Peter was there, there were meetings. But when the Ebonyi man came in, it was as if there was no meeting for over eight years. You have Ebonyi and the Owerri man and they are in APC, Anambra is APGA, Enugu is PDP and Abia is Labour. So how now will they meet?

So, individuals have tried. Igbo people have a way of striving and developing themselves. There are industries springing up in different parts of Igboland. Government is sponsoring pharmaceutical companies in Anambra. Some are building hotels. So, gradually, people are coming back. Others want to come back but the state government has to help. When you go to Abakaliki from Enugu, you see a large expanse of land. The same thing with when you go to Nsukka. I’m saying the government should involve itself in rice farms, plantations and all that. See what is going on in Anambra with Coscharis producing rice. Some governors have initiatives, some don’t.

What’s your reaction to the general insecurity and killings in the South East?

It is very painful and we pray to the almighty God. And we plead with our own boys to appreciate that it is not fair killing ourselves. It is very painful. The only thing we can do is to pray. In Anambra, as elders, we meet the governor. He has just invited us and we have formed a union; Anambra Elders Forum. We had it before but Peter hijacked it and brought us into his government and captured us and started controlling us. We met once every month. When he had a problem with the legislature, we stepped in and stopped it. I intend to sit with Soludo and chat with him because he is my son too. I will see the Commissioner for Education who is my in-law and ask questions. I’ll make my own suggestions. I’ll make these suggestions and you can see I don’t have any force. So, if you like you can listen, if you don’t like you leave it. If I can mobilise forces somewhere, if you know, that is how a pressure group works.

When this Nnamdi Kanu issue started; there was a time he had a meeting with Igbo Leaders of Thought. Since then has there been any opportunity to reach out to this group over the issue?

Whatever you do, you can only talk to them privately. We all remember Buhari’s own approach. But if you move in quietly, they may listen to you. They may not be as aggressive as they are. It is just like a pressure group. They’re everywhere in the world, even in the United States. If you like you kill them if you like you do whatever you want but they will always be there. That is what Buhari failed to understand and that is why he couldn’t do much. When I was the Director-General of the National Orientation Agency, under IBB, I was there during Obasanjo, I made my input; a good number of them had respect for me. This is how much they have respect for me and I can talk about it anywhere. Some governors then came to my office and I told them the truth bluntly. I told them that we need to build this nation and I’m damn sure you will be happier if we have a big country called Nigeria where everybody has a sense of belonging. Why are they criticising you as a governor? Is it because your policy is not as it should be? If you have a good policy, people will see it. Some people may criticise but they will say yes, this man is doing well let’s leave him. So, what is it all about? But you prefer to have bulletproof cars. How do you sleep at night? I don’t understand. When you are a government, you don’t need to be on the defensive. Go forward, the people will go with you. That is the way I look at it. People will go with you if you are progressing. Don’t mind all these people who have their own interests.

What do you think is the solution to the problem of where the Igbo find themselves as a people?

No, we are moving on like all others. There’s no peace anywhere, whether it is Northerners or westerners or Europe or US. No one is at peace. It is true that we are not getting the kind of thing we want and we are restless but we are moving on. I will continue to live that way. We are moving on progressively. We are talking about industrialisation, we are talking about infrastructure, this is all movement. I ask, do you think that this governor, Peter Mbah of Enugu State, if he stays, will not develop his area? Of course he will.

We are going to be able to tackle the insecurity issue. They are handling it. Soon, you find people revolting. You see the issue of Simon Ekpa who is there in Finland and is just giving instructions. He doesn’t know how people cope here. He should ask, is it the best way? Why don’t you consult with people? If the people think it is not the best way, let’s find another way. Is it too late to get Biafra? Who are the people suffering when you’re doing that? Is there no other way? I don’t know the other way but as we discuss, you can find the other one.

About Nnamdi Kanu, they should release him. Even the court said you should release him but Buhari tried to say that he didn’t care; he didn’t want to obey the law. Even the British did not want to release him, yet he is a British citizen. When two Americans were arrested in Niger, they brought in their plane. They rescued their citizens. But Kanu is a British citizen. If he is not an Igbo man, will they abandon him the way they abandon him here? Will they treat him like this? No, it is very painful. The man has spent his blood trying to help this country. These people are mysterious. They just make up their mind and start hating people. That is not the way. You don’t progress by hating people. Even with your personal progress, you cannot achieve it by hating people. If you are moving forward, things will brighten up for you. The way will be clear for you. Even when there are obstacles, you will still move on.

Do you have a word for Peter Obi as he pursues his election in court?

What do I give to him? He is working hard and I believe he may win. If you look at the submissions by Olanipekun, who said that if Tinubu is disqualified because he didn’t get 25 per cent in the FCT, there will be chaos; he is admitting that they could do that. The army and the police are there. What kind of confusion is that? Why did you swear him (Tinubu) in when things have not been cleared? Peter is determined and he is a progressive, plain-minded somebody. He’s not into all these petty things. I served under him and I know him well. He was my student. He was attending my courses when I was at Nsukka. I’ll go to Abia soon, so, I can talk to Alex Otti. Let me settle down and talk to him so I can give him my own advice.

Recently, the European Union released their observations about the general elections and I expect that the Igbo Leaders of Thought would have followed the happenings too. So, how did you receive the EU Observers’ Report?

You were wise enough to come to me and I will give you my own views. I am not in touch with the European Union. They are quite very diplomatic. They are more diplomatic than us, so they can come up with their agenda. For us here, the election was not peaceful. It was not as it should be. The European Union has said there was no election. That everything was rigged but it depends on whether the judiciary can do the right thing. There have been observations made about the Chief Justice of Nigeria. The trip to the UK and allegedly going to negotiate with Tinubu. These things have been heard and people are watching and they’re monitoring some of the statements, some of the conversations. So, it depends on whether they will depend on technicalities or they will do the right thing. (Saturday Sun, excluding headline)

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